• Jonathan Lawrence posted an update 1 year, 10 months ago

    Instead of focusing on damage control with respect to the Liberal MP’s comments about Alberta, we should follow the Conservative strategy, stay silent on the issue, dig up some dirt on our opponents relevant to the Calgary riding and turn the media spotlight back on the Conservatives again. It’s easier to make Canadians forget than to changer their mind about what was said. In the meantime, I implore Liberal MP’s etc to think very carefully before they speak. Speak passionately but cautiously.

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    • That’s a great idea! Next you’ll suggest we lose our morals altogether!

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      • Robert,

        Curious, in what way could my suggestion be construed as immoral?

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        • I think Jon that maybe the work dirt is the wrong expression, but if you used something like dig up some true unsavoury facts, without any notion of fabrication, then it would be more to the point. Yes we have to play the game, but in a way of integrity, we want to know the facts, but not embellished innuendo, maybe that was what Robert was getting at.

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          • THAT IS HOW POLITICS IS DONE. There is enough ”dirt” in the facts to do the job. I don’t think Jon was suggesting we make things up, but politics is about spin.

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          • THAT IS HOW POLITICS IS DONE. There is enough ”dirt” in the facts to do the job. I don’t think Jon was suggesting we make things up, but politics is about spin.

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      • Robert I think Jon meant that we should not sit back and take abuse, fabricated innuendo, and should fight back and I hope he meant we had to start digging up solid information to offset the way the CPC does things and to be prepared with facts when the CPC plays its dirty tricks. It is easy for a bully to beat up his opponent when the opponent is not expecting it, but not so when the abused is ready to fight back. Let no one be astonished that the CPC is the ultimate bully and we should be making sure the world sees them as such and name them as such.

        Bullying is not much approved these days,

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        • Exactly, I suggested that we dig up dirt about the Conservatives as a means of both response and redirection. I was not suggesting that we fabricate evidence against the Conservatives. I believe that we can retain our integrity while still responding to the Conservatives in kind. Our response simply needs to be swift, accurate, and effective.

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          • The phrase used was ”dig up some dirt”. That bothers me. I don’t believe in modelling our behaviour on the dirty tactics of our opponents. I don’t believe the end justifies the means, no matter how glorious the end might be. To win dishonourably is hardly a victory. As I wrote Jonathan, if one is going to sup with the devil, one had better do so with a very long spoon.

            Sound, solid argument will win out in the long run. If I am mistaken on that, then I have been disillusioned for a good many years.

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            • By the number of thumbs down you got I think I belong to the wrong party, or maybe just a few posters here who want to win at all costs, with the disillusion that they are any different then the opponents that they have dropped to the level of.

              The world be be changing Robert and leaving us behind, or at least the LPC, if this becomes the LPC policy, play dirty, then I will be dropping my membership and I think more then a few with me.

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              • Donald,

                That is an interesting ’spin’ on what was actually said by those commenting on this thread. Spin can hardly be avoided. The simple fact of the matter is that you think your spin is the truth and that when others spin details they are being deceitful or illiberal. The fact is the Liberal Party has always embraced this form of politics and you are being deceitful in suggesting otherwise. To the contrary, my impression is that the Liberal Party has suffered by growing too soft, not from its willingness to dig in and fight the good fight.

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                • Fighting the good fight, may be spun as no bars held, or fighting it with some integrity. My definition of spin is simply the taking of some apparent and obvious information and changing it, knowing the change is wrong, and using it for gain. Yes ones own definition can be genuine or can be spin, but intentionally looking for anything that can be spun into a different meaning. For me it is like the difference between someone bumping into an old person so that they drop some money, to pick it up for themselves or watching the same old person drop some money and then pretend you did not see who dropped it and keep the money. This is spin, one where you can not prove that the person did was intentional and a nasty way to spin the facts for gain.

                  Your way of spin appears to be the spin that one can not be sure I did not interpret it that way, we all think differently. I can see your spin is that it is better to win no matter how so that we can make things better, but my thought is once we have tasted success from one way can we give up that taste afterward. Once I had an American customer, a very successful businessman, who told me, winning was the most important thing, and how you won was not important as long as you did not get caught, and that you won! I think this is what spin accomplishes. My personal opinion of course, my spin on things you might say, as you did say. But thanks for the education and for my part we should win the next election on policy, direction, and good planning to defend those policies, not on how we spin them to get elected and then do whatever. WE should win the election on who we are, not on what the other guys are or are not.

                  And, has it maybe occurred to you that maybe the LPC is not doing so well because, if we are becoming more like the other parties, then there is less reason to be a liberal.

                  You may think we are losing because we are not fighting the dirty way well enough, but maybe we are losing because some are thinking what is the difference, they are all the same, why bother even voting, you can not believe a thing any of them say, they all have some spin on it that is not likely true, and none say anything solid enough to hold them to.

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            • Robert,

              You just described my position as being Machiavellian. That’s a pretty dirty trick to try to win an argument if you ask me. Perhaps you should be involved in writing our response with such effective use of exaggerated and inflammatory rhetoric.

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            • Robert,

              I also quickly wanted to say that I did not mean the previous comment in any way to be directed at your character, so please don’t consider it so. I merely wanted to point out how such tactics are quite standard practice in politics and rather difficult to avoid. The easiest manner to achieve this is to demonstrate my point with your own argument.

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          • shouldn’t be hard to do

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      • THAT IS HOW POLITICS IS DONE.

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        • Spin is the problem here, and I for one am not in favour of taking innocent facts or statements and then SPINNING them into a different meaning, it is not honest and has not integrity. If winning is the most important thing and not how you win then I belong to the wrong party, or maybe I should not belong to any party any more.

          Here is some spin for you, the CPC are deciding on China and ownership of our oil, but the Chinese government and system is among the most corrupt in the world, and their idea of achieving anything is bribery and corruption. Does anyone believe that they have not tried to pay off our current government and officials where billions of dollars are at stake, and 10’s of millions in bribes would be insignificant. How is it that our system of government allows individuals the power over such decisions where they could be subject to payoffs. Surely the news of the corruption of all levels of government has not fallen on deaf ears. What is at stake now is worth a lot more then a few municipal contracts, what is at stake will last decades and see our environment under control of foreign governments who show they have not respect for environment, let alone human rights.

          We need this system changed so that only large committees or in place rules will make the decisions, and not a few insider individuals. Fact is that any party in that position will be put to huge bribes and will succumb. Where does our party stand here, do the ones in power want the ability to have full sway and thus extract additional income even if it is labelled as consultation after their retire. There has to be a better way and one of them may be to band all deals with corrupt industries and governments.

          So I spun this conversation into what may the the biggest risk to Canada as a nation, people and way of living and believing, and the CPC is spinning this as an important key to our future and it is if only we could derail their spin.

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      • Robert: any suggestions

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    • You have to give credit where credit is due, and in the game of politics the CPC should get full points for playing this perfectly.

      Let’s assume that the Trudeau team is right in saying that the video is completely out of context. With the By-election on Monday, the CPC released this video on a Thursday afternoon – a day after the gift they got from McGuinty. Even if the Trudeau team gets time to respond before the by-election it will fall on the Friday news cycle at the earliest, or a busy holiday shopping weekend. No one will hear the rebuttal before the by-election.

      Perfectly played by the CPC. Our party should take lessons from this. I agree with Jonathan, the game is going to be played whether we’re willing participants or not. So we might as well hone our skills. I just think it’s too late for the Calgary-Centre by-election.

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    • Jonathan: (Re. spealing carefully) HarperCons have a policy of division. The fact is, Harper did pursue an ”Alberta agenda” (with precious little benefit for Alberta) and he did ignore Quebec; which is agenda #2 and it is proven by his results in the Quebec vote. His agenda for central Canada is squirrelled away in the negotiations with EU. If realised, the deal is potentially harmful to mid-Canada’s economy. Ergo: Alberta gets Enbridge with unimaginable risks hawked as mana from heaven by HarperCons and CAPP; while central Canada gets Windsor Bridge built by Americans who will send Windsor the bill. There are two points: 1. Nothing an LPC news maker can say can be safe from HarperCon policies of divisiveness. 2. You do not need ”dirt” on HarperCons when the facts speak loud and clear. The facts & principles: HARPERCON CONVOLUTIONS ARE NOT IN THE NATIONAL INTEREST.

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