Keshav Chandra posted an update 1 year, 10 months ago
International day of tolerance? Words don’t mean a thing Mr. Karygiannis.
I think we need to tweek the multicultural policy which is unfettered and assumes that all cultures are made up of angels.
Given what goes on in the middle east and else where we should not be importing some of those cultures to Canada any time soon. I think it will take long time before some of violence embedded in cultures subsides as people begin to recognise that some cultures sanction brutal and uncivilized behaviour to enforce their kind of values which we disagree with in Canada and are unacceptable to our way of life.
So whatever country harbors terrorists and radical elements, strike them from our immigration list. It will take centuries before these guys change their behaviour once having recognized how wrong they were.
I don’t want Canada to share the violence due to our policies borne out of naiviette and questionalble sense of idealism.
I want peace and freedom!
Note: ”compassion” is often listed as a Liberal value. If that is to be the case, some may take offense with your statement ”Given what goes on in the middle east and else where we should not be importing some of those cultures to Canada any time soon” and consider it to be in conflict with LPC value of compassion. All I am saying is that there are some people from the middle east who are trying to get away from the violence and extremism and look to countries like Canada for a new start in life in a more open, peaceful and compassionate society. Would it not be a shame if we automatically shut the door to all those that are sincerely trying to find a better life?
Andre: Yes, I agree. Compassion is a word which can be used to let those folks in who pretend they intend to escape persecution. I do recall instances where those who seek compassion were fanatics themselves but got persecuted themselves in the society they were living in. But I cannot go there to point out facts. The other thing is they can seek another country closer to home which will deliver compassion to them. If persecution is what they intend to escape. That is where I seee fraud. Lierals can be fooled due to their naivette.
I think that is simply an excuse to get into Canada. There are no security checks on people who live in fanatic countries and in fact fanatics might be revered as good and responsible people. others cannot handle a different culture which contradicts their values so strongly that they react.
Just look at Gadafi. He said that he wants to send refugees to Europe because he wants to convert them. Yes those were the boats that left his country. Those were his plans. That was not a matter of compassion but an objective which liberals are so ready to embrace and be fooled.
Please look at the real situation realistically.
Your misguided idea of compassion is turning Tornto into a welfare haven on another front. Yeah, those government housing projects are meant for those who run the underground economy while pretending they are poor. This is not to say all of them are in that boat. No that is not what I am saying. Recently the Toronto’s auditor general claimed that some 50,000 people have registered businesses who also are listed on the welfare recipients list if you check their addresses.
You go figure how your compassionate thinking is producing good results.
Define sincerety and how you determine it among the applicants.
The whole world is full of exploitation and persecution. Millions upon millions everywhere. They don’t have the money to show up here. Can we cope with that? Let us not kid ourselves.
Liberals need a reality check.
Andre: Please define and elaborate the word compassion
How come Mr Karygianis is so silent? I addressed my message to him? Can he not speak? Is this site for propaganda and liberal monologue?
One of my favourite former bosses immigrated from Lebanon. I’m glad he came to Canada because I learned a great deal of practical knowledge, as well as increased cultural understanding from him. I don’t think we should have a doors wide open policy in this country (we’ve never had that since we formalized borders), but I would resist the idea very strongly that we allow only immigrants of a certain culture in. You don’t get to choose what country you are born in, you get to choose (to some degree) what you make of life.
Life is not so simple as you make of it. I think there has to be a cultural match. As there are immigrants who do not believe in multiculturism.
Not agreeing on a subject is a trademark of a democracy, and is a sign of a healthy one at that. Life is not simple, as you say. That is why I suggest we look at the applicant, and not just the cultural group they come from.
John: I respected more than one Lebanese gentleman. They were very competent, and one of them was very sociable in addition.
I once talked about the Israeli situation and the jews to one of them. He said things that I dare not repeat in public. I guess he trusted me.
Yes, many of immigrants do criticize western women as whores according to a lady who posted her experience with an immigrant neighbor. She happened to ask the ladies as to what they thought of Canadian women. She said at that point she withdrew her friendship.
i think we should not idealize reality to the point that we overlook things.
You might want to remind those who oversee the website regarding healthy democracy: Censoring one’s opinions about what kind of leader I think is appropriate for Canada is subject to censorship by removing the item from the top as the item is published. Wow!
We are here to discuss policy. Nothing is off the table. I speak from life time experiences. Compassion should not be exercised using borrowed money which liberals don’t care to consider. The country is reeling with debt among all levels of government..
There are so many things wrong with what you are saying, Keshav…
First of all, not only is your sentiment un-Liberal, it is un-Canadian. That is not who we are. We are compassionate, open and tolerant. We do not blame individuals for the crimes of their fathers or brothers or a few of their countrymen.
Does your “ban” on immigrants from certain countries include a ban on refugees from these countries? The ones trying to flee the terror? The persecuted?
Are you blaming Palestinian innocents for the actions of Hamas? Israelis for the actions of their government? Are you condemning all Syrians – the dictatorship supporters as well as the rebels fighting for democracy as well as those that just want a peaceful life for their children?
Does your “ban” extend beyond the middle east? Chechnya? Congo? Anywhere there is terrorism? What about Sweden and Norway with their anti-Muslim groups? What about Germany with their neo-Nazis – should we stop all Germans from immigrating as well?
You say “…whatever country harbors terrorists and radical elements, strike them from our immigration list …” – find me a country without terrorists cells operating in them Keshav – name one that does not have “radical elements”. But the general citizenry are not responsible for the actions of a few criminals and murderers.
And, which “… cultures sanction brutal and uncivilized behaviour …” – which ones Keshav? Statements like that come dangerously close to bigotry and racism.
My family arrived from the UK – a “people” known for their oppression of others for their colonialism and imperialism – perhaps my family should have been kept out of Canada.
And you and your family are from India, Keshav, correct? Well, India has terrorist organisations. What about the Indian Mujahedeen? I believe there is even a Hindu terror group (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/india-uncovers-hindu-terror-group-that-carried-out-bombings-blamed-on-islamists-14076306.html). Bombings and hatred run rampant throughout your homeland.
Perhaps your family should have been denied entry as well.
But I don’t believe that Keshav. I believe that Canada can lead the world. We can show the rest of the world how Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Sikhs, those that follow the varied sacred beliefs of our First Nations peoples, agnostics and atheists can all live together in harmony. Black people, white people, brown people, yellow people and red people. Asians, Europeans, North Americans (both immigrated and aboriginal), Australians, Africans and South Americans – all are welcome here Keshav … as long as they agree to live a peaceful life respecting others.
Yes very idealistic – but there are such things a “good” ideals. Naïve – I don’t think so, it seems to be working pretty well I think. Not perfect, but better than most countries.
Try it Keshav, try a little respect for you fellow man – all of them. It’s the Canadian thing to do. We all want peace and freedom including the vast majority of those looking for a better life here – who are you (or we) to arbitrarily decide who has that opportunity?
Martin: you make some very good and valid points.
In some countries we do have good security checks to ensure that those who are violent radicals are flushed out from coming to Canada. In many countries the violent radicals are the ones who are revered and will pass local security checks. How come those who were running terrorist cells in Montreal once upon a time got into Canada.
Now Martin tell me why we did not invite Afrcan victims of the Hutu/Tutu conflict to come and settle here? A million died from what I recall. Was it because they were black?
Tell me! We should have taken in hundreds of thousands from that conflict alone but we did not. I did not hear any liberals shouting please come to Canada!
Tell me why liberals always pay lip service to our natives over the years? They always talk great things about natives when they are in opposition but little do they do when in power. Liberals are hypocrites of the first order. Liberals have been in power long enough to have done something substantive. But what do we have solvent sniffing kids and high suicde rate among the teens. Poor housing and education funding. We should have had first responsiblity to look after them After all we took over their land and put them in reservations so that we are not offended by them. We speak of them with such compassion and love. Some Liberal compassion! Phooey!
Where is this so called compassion? Liberals are no more heros than conservatives!
Point of information on the situation of First Nations: see the Kelowna Accord. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelowna_Accord
”The Kelowna Accord is a series of agreements between the Government of Canada, First Ministers of the Provinces, Territorial Leaders, and the leaders of five national aboriginal organizations in Canada. The Accord sought to improve the education, employment, and living conditions for Aboriginal peoples through governmental funding and other programs. The Accord was endorsed by Prime Minister Paul Martin, but was wholly disposed of by his successor, Stephen Harper.”
I will also take this opportunity to remind everyone that comments in this community are meant for a constructive and civil discussion. We reserve the right to remove any comments that do not meet these objectives. This thread, at this point, is more divisive than constructive. Thank you for understanding.
Andre: Liberals have existed long before Chretien Liberals and Paul Martin whom I really admire. Why so late in doing anything about it? We have been giving foreign aid all over the world over the years. Charity begins at home?
From what I heard the department of Indian affairs used to be a bureaucracy mostly with a large overhead.
Well now you’re talking about completely different things, aren’t you. Without, I notice, answering any of my questions.
I do not know who these Montreal terrorists you refer to are, Keshav. I have no idea how or on what program, they entered Canada of if they were even here illegally. What I do know is that just because a system may not be 100% perfect, you don’t shut it down and close your doors. Many of those ”terrorists” might have entered with a US or UK or French passport – I don’t know. But fighting terrorism is a separate issue from immigration.
Actually Canada did take over 600 refugees from Rwanda during and after the conflict. Obviously we cannot afford to take the entire country or even 100’s of thousands. But Canada does its part. There are people suffering all over the world and we do our best to take as many refugees from these areas as we can. You might want to read: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/games/teachers-corner/refugee/refuge.asp.
Canada resettles more refugees per capita than almost any other country – one in 10 of all refugees resettled worldwide.
Canada, and especially the LPC, have a strong track-record when dealing with refugees from all over the world.
The LPC has always been on the forefront of fair immigration policy and standing up for refugee programs. See our petition: http://petition.liberal.ca/stop-bill-c31-antirefugee-bill/ and do a little research into the history of the party and our current criticisms of Jason Kenney before you attack our party, Keshav. You don’t have a clue what you are talking about.
As far as our aboriginal peoples … completely off topic bit ok … again DO SOME RESEARCH! Look at the Kelowna Accord, look at the work of Paul Martin. Look at our resolution 73: https://convention.liberal.ca/priority-resolutions/73-supporting-canada%E2%80%99s-aboriginal-people/comment-page-1/
And please contact Dr. Carolyn Bennett directly (our Critic for Aboriginal Affairs & Northern Development) and suggest to her that the LPC policies and efforts on First Nations issues is ”phooey”. Please! I know she will respond to you Keshav.
Get your facts straight before you attack this party.
I think I judge by results. If there was good effort to remove disparities among the native people then by now the problem would have gone. Canada is among the wealthiest countries of the world. You got to recognize reality. Liberals have ben arround for 150 years.
I have faced bigotry myself in Canada and I know how it is like. It also more recently has included my children. O.K! Notwithstanding liberapl pary’s strong stance against it. That is not all either.
My immigration visa also carried restrictions according to an old law that was used to keep East Indians out of Canada. I did not know of it at the time but later I found out. This happened while Trudeau was in power.
Do personal experiences amount to anything?
People change. Parties change. Countries change. It is called growth. I do not defend the actions of past generations. I try to improve for the next generations. Has the Liberal Party of Canada done the right things throughout the history of Canada? Of course not. Are we trying to do the right things now? I think so.
I have no control over what the Liberal party did, or did not do, until about 35 years ago. And then I was too self absorbed to care about my country or even the party I voted for.
One of my greatest shames as a Canadian citizen was learning about residential schools a few years back. But, oh well I thought, I can’t be responsible for what was done so long ago … then I found out that Canada still had these “schools” into the 1990’s. I was alarmed and ashamed. How could “I” have let this happen? How could I have not even know this was happening? I learned from that and have made an effort ever since to educate myself on aboriginal issues and as many other issues affecting Canada as I can. I also work to try and involve youth in politics and the issues of the day in the hope that they won;t wake up 15 years from now and … be ashamed.
The Liberal Party of Canada has been working to improve the situation for aboriginals in Canada for years and we continue to do so. And we won’t stop until the problems are solved. The Kelowna accord was a great step forward and gift from the Liberal Party to Canada … unfortunately Stephen Harper and the Conservatives had other ideas … namely, to do nothing. They have continued with their do nothing approach, fighting fires as they crop up, but not addressing the issue that needs to be addressed.
Dr. Carolyn Bennett works tirelessly on this file. Paul Martin never stopped and even now that he is no longer in the political light, he continues to devote himself to helping First Nations with his “Martin Aboriginal Educational Initiative” (http://www.maei-ieam.ca/)
It is unfair to label all LIberals as you did: “Liberals are hypocrites of the first order”. It is unfair to say: “Some Liberal compassion! Phooey!”. It is unfair to write: “Where is this so called compassion? Liberals are no more heroes than conservatives!”.
Your statements are not true and are unfair and they hurt deeply those that are working so hard and they hurt the party.
As I said before, I strongly urge you to write to Dr. Carolyn Bennett (our Critic for Aboriginal Affairs & Northern Development), I know she will be happy to respond to your questions and concerns, to inform you of all the work the Liberals have done and continue to do, on this issue. (firstname.lastname@example.org).
We will get results Keshav. But only if we work together as a party, not if our own members insult and criticize and undermine the good work we are doing.
I totally agree with Martin. Kendra, You need to get your facts straightt. I suggest by reading the preamble to the Liberal Pary of Canada.. Further the Canadian experience of multiculterism has been succeessful. We really don’t seem to suffer from Terrorist attacks. In fact, the newcom. ers should be helped a lot more than they are.. Contrary to what many Canadians believe, while we do do it out of compassion, the main reason we welcome newcomers is because they benefit our country, especially our economy.
I think you might want to consider examining the following comment you made as to the accuracy;
Here is your quote:
”And, which “… cultures sanction brutal and uncivilized behaviour …” – which ones Keshav? ”
Are you in denial? I do think that you read the news.
I love Canada more than the liberals it seems. Yes, I did not over run the natives! but I share the guilt for being silent about it.
I was ashamed and sorry to see a native beg downtown Toronto when I came to Canada. I felt these people owned the country once and look at him now he has been reduced to begging and of all the people me who is looking for a job and settle down. I felt ashamed and guilty, but could do nothing.
That was not a comment Keshav … it was a question. I don’t know of any cultures that ”sanction brutal and uncivilized behaviour”.
I am not saying that brutal and uncivilized behaviour does not exist … I am just saying that I know of no culture that sanctions it.
And I feel this is very important Keshav because you are suggesting in your original post that members of theses cultures should not be allowed into Canada.
So I ask again … which cultures sanction brutality and uncivilized behaviour? Please list them so that we can all see to which cultures you personally choose to deny the opportunity of immigration to Canada.
I suggest that you reflect on that comment. You are in denial. I cannot help you on that one as I don’t want to open up another front of arguments. Have you not heard of treatment of homosexuals, adulterers, and those who commit apostasy? Treatment of those women who have become unchaste? Are you saying that it does not exist?
We have read enough about it in the news.
Of course I have heard of these things. So, based on your idea of limiting immigration to cultures that are (I guess you are saying) ”like us”, then we would not allow the homosexuals, the adulterers, victims of apostasy, victimized ”unchaste” women … all of these should also be denied the right to immigrate to Canada because of the culture that they come from. Is that right?
I am not in denial Keshav (and I do not appreciate that ’tone’) … I think you miss my point …
You said that members of certain cultures that ”sanction brutal and uncivilized behaviour” should not be allowed to immigrate to Canada. That is what you said isn’t it? Or did I misunderstand?
If that is what you said, then I am asking you to list those cultures. I am interested to know which cultures you think Canada should say no to. If you truly believe in this idea, then have the same courage that the leaders of our party and the leaders of Canada would need to have to implement this idea, and state which cultures we are closing the door on. Who you think is not worthy of the chance at a better life in Canada because of their ”culture”.
If you cannot do that then I suggest you retract your idea and admit that it was not well thought out and does not represent the beliefs and principles of our party or of Canada.
You are putting words in my mouth. I did not say any such thing. It appears that you are wilfully misinterpreting:
”Of course I have heard of these things. So, based on your idea of limiting immigration to cultures that are (I guess you are saying) ”like us”, then we would not allow the homosexuals, the adulterers, victims of apostasy, victimized ”unchaste” women … all of these should also be denied the right to immigrate to Canada because of the culture that they come from. Is that right?”
What happened to your original comment Keshav? … the one that went like this:
Keshav Chandra replied to one of your comments:
”Of course I have heard of these things. So, based on your idea of limiting immigration to cultures that are (I guess you are saying) ”like us”, then we would not allow the homosexuals, the adulterers, victims of apostasy, victimized ”unchaste” women … all of these should also be denied the right to immigrate to Canada because of the culture that they come from. Is that right?
No that is not right. Either you got it wrong or I said it incorrectly.
Martin you are misquoting me. This is confusing. May be I used the wrong word. What I meant was those cultures which practice such attrocities should not be welcome to Canada.”
To which I replied:
There you just said it again ”… those cultures which practice such atrocities should not be welcome to Canada.”
And I asked, again, which cultures you think we should bar from immigrating to Canada?
You can’t change your argument by changing your posts Keshav … that’s cheating.
So I will ask you now to please confirm …
Are you saying that certain cultures should not be allowed to immigrate to Canada? And if you are, tell us which those cultures are please.
I am not aware of Ukrainian Genocide. But I am aware of first war when some Ukerainians were interned like the Japanese during the second war. There were Ukrainians who lost their property as a result. One guy who refused to be put in detention and escaped but lost his house to guess you know what type when he returned to reclaim it.
You think colonies don’t happen in Canada? Just look around. Will they ever become distinct societies? Just look at Philipines.
I have once chased a realtor selling in my neighborhood once telling him not to attract someone of my kind etc. I want my neighborhood to be mixed coming from different cultures. Realtors often tell you where the colonies are. They know it. So people accumulate there.
I myself have multiple races and religions in my own family diaspora. Can you say the same about yourself?
This is a totally ridiculous post.
Right you are Dougald. Downright embarrasing if you ask me. The lack of decorum (personal diatribes) in most discussions here is astounding.
I agree. There is nothing wrong with erring on the side of compassion Citizenship is a privilege not a right. What we should be looking for is a means to correct the errors, for example by removing immigrant status and/or citizenship from those who misuse or abuse it. People going to other countries to become terrorists and people illegally helping people get citizenship or landed immigrant status – even if they are born here – without the right to years of appeals.. Compassionate but not permissive.
I will briefly add that banning people who countries where there are terrorists makes no sense.
There will be plenty of people who will want to leave a country to escape the threat of terror, for one.
But my own ancestors lived in Northern Ireland, where more than 3,000 people have been killed in ”the troubles”.
In the 60s and 70s there was terrorism in Quebec, Italy, France, Germany, Turkey – on and on.
You can’t build up a wall and shut it out. As Marshall McLuhan said, the alternative to violence is dialogue.
All I can say is I am very disappointed in the current string of discussion. Although being democratic gives you freedom to express your views…I feel that this site has been completely hijacked by one person’s views with which I have no time to argue with and would simply have to agree to disagree with Mr. Chandra.
as I will never be able to change his views on the subject nor will he ever change mine, which are quite opposite.
Keshav: If words mean nothing, how about thumbs. Please check and take a hint. I keep looking for content and find nothing.