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Martin Showell posted an update 10 months, 2 weeks ago
#cannabis #LeadershipRace … Deborah Coyne supports resolution 117: Legalize and Regulate Marijuana …
Earlier today, in response to a comment from John Shavluk about the legalization of marijuana and the LPC leadership race, I posted this:
“It is up to you and me and other like-minded Liberals to force this issue to be part of the leadership…[Read more]
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Good work Martin! Thank you.
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Agree. This will certainly give the party an avante garde, specific and targetable identity. I am concerned about the hazards of marijuana use and the cost of treating the tokers/jokers.
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Hi Jerry. Many medical researchers have come to the conclusion that there a very few real risks to smoking marijuana, and of course, there are many health benefits. My personal feeling is that there are health risks associated however, I know of very few things in this world that do not have a risk. I read somewhere recently that too many apples…[Read more]
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Just a little addition for you to consider Martin.
I am 100% behind the legalization of marijuana because I am looking at forming a co-operative of farmers to grow hemp in the Similkamean Valley in B.C. I am presently living in Manitoba and the hemp industry is already starting to develop here. However much much more would be possible if…[Read more]
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Hemp is an amazing plant – its uses are varied, its derivative products are high quality and cheap to produce. It should be a much larger crop than it is and Canada is well suited to hemp production.
I am not sure however, that legalizing and regulating “marijuana” is necessarily going to change the regulations for industrial hemp production.…[Read more]
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The reason I bring this up is there seems to be a lot of information that reinforces the notion that cannabis was not made illegal for the reasons most of think. Which was to curtail people from getting high from certain species of the plant.
Perhaps it really was as some people suggest, a protectionist measure to protect the livelihoods of…[Read more]
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Oh, undoubtedly there were many forces at work to instigate prohibition of marijuana/hemp. Just as there are many varied groups interested in continuing prohibition … pharmaceutical companies, prison building and management companies … I’m sure John can list lots of groups that benefit from prohibition.
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Marijuana, like alcohol can be over done, and lead to health problems. Health problems are better addressed by doctors and nurses than by police and lawyers.
One of the folk definitions of insanity is that insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different outcome. By this definition continuing the war drugs to stop…[Read more]
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I agree @jerry-green – if it doesn’t work, why keep doing it! Time to move on and end prohibition. Good to see another clear thinker supporting this important resolution.
And to Jerry and @myles-macleod, I would like to add …
The Liberal policy resolution (http://convention.liberal.ca/justice/117-legalize-and-regulate-marijuana/) clearly and…[Read more]
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Hey Martin
You seem to have mistaken me for someone who doesn’t support this resolution. I would have thought that my original post made it clear tht I do support it. The gist of that post was that having marijuana illegal is a huge obstacle to harm reduction.-
Not at all Myles … I definitely understood that you support the resolution.
However, you voiced a concern about associated health issues and I was just trying to draw your, and other readers, attention to the FULL resolution wording which includes education and harm reduction. Perhaps I would have been better to address your comment separately…[Read more]
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Hi Martin,
Good call! I totally agree with moderation and legalizing and mostly regulating marijuana. The law enforcement shouldn’t have to worry about this, they have greater things to worry about. Marijuana is now mixed with so many things it’s ridiculous. This is so dangerous, we need to get this out of the bad hands. However I have a worry,…[Read more]
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Agreed and these issues need to be, and based on the standing resolution will be, properly addressed.
Remember one of the big benefits of legalization and regulation is that it will remove literally billions of dollars a year from the pockets of organized crime and gangs. Without this “easy” money, these criminals will have a harder time…[Read more]
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Hi John,
This is what I found (no Canadian sites – all American):http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2012/may/11/tainted-synthetic-marijuana-blamed-rash-kidney-pro/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axXhrZc5mwo (not the best language… but tells…[Read more]
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John, I am not on your group, but interested.
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”What if everything you learned about marijuana was wrong”..
An interesting read. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/laurel-dewey/marijuana-is-not-addictive_b_1739339.html -
I am with you on this one..Legalizing marijuana’s time has come. The evidence is there for its useful purpose..
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HOw many people use canabis for heath reasons and how many for pleasure reasons? Surely if canabis was so potent on cancer it would be used by medicine without legalizing it for common use.
I am for legalizing it, but I also know that it is not primarily for in medical benefits, even though it may have some benefits, but realitly and…[Read more] -
Thanks for the link Joe. I hope everybody takes the time to read it.
When the Party passed this policy at the convention I was delightfully surprised for many reasons. However the one thought that kept lingering in my head was……so much for the Harper Conservatives vote of solidarity in Alberta? With this policy adoption by the Liberals . If…[Read more]
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If we are actually reviving our dying outdated party, how about changing the old policy where MP’s had no obligation to adhere to official party policy? Why should members work hard developing policy if nothing happens to it?
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Jerry, we are not dying, just resting :-) Outdated, a bit perhaps, but to be honest, I’m not sure what the other parties say about veto over member adopted policy.
In the LPC it is part of the constitution that the leader of the party can veto content in platform policy.
A proposed amendment to the constitution was defeated at the 2012…[Read more]
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There was an item in the press recently about marijuana affecting the intelligence of users under the age of 18. The headlines were dramatic, but when you read the article it turned out that the problem only existed for under 18′s that toked up very frequently, not casual users. So that’s one. Most of the supposed dangers that I have read…[Read more]
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Myles: As John points out, I used marijuana when I was a teen, throughout my teens as a matter of fact. Something I am neither proud of nor advocate for others.
The reason I did was mostly the time and the society that I grew up in – a time when youth was rebelling in any way possible (althought I no longer remember what we were rebelling against…[Read more]
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Thank you Robert.
First let me extend my sympathy and empathy to you in the difficult battle you are facing with your illness. I respect and admire your courage to fight and look for answers, not just for yourself but for others in your situation, now and in times to come.
It is you who should be applauded sir, not me.
No possible treatment for…[Read more]
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I wish you and your daughter Godspeed and success.
Perhaps you could tell us more about this walk and the crusade you and she are embarking on? When is it? Who is organizing it? How can others join or contribute? Are there any links or information you can share?
I’d like to help and I live in Toronto, so maybe I could come and lend some…[Read more]
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I will not respond to your threats and shouting anymore John. If you want to have a rational conversation please show me some respect. Otherwise, I have nothing to say to you directly.
I will make my own posts and comments on this issue and I don’t particularly care if you like them, or agree with them, or not.
Quite obviously, the vast…[Read more]
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This also would appear to be a threat against the party and our leaders unless we capitulate and adhere to Mr Shavluk’s agenda. I believe that would be called extortion in some circles.
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I have flagged this as ”inappropriate” as I believe it constitutes a direct threat against Mr Trudeau’s right to privacy.
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Sorry Martin but I had to flag your post as inappropriate also. Justin has nothing to hide.
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No apologies necessary, Frank … a man’s gotta do what a man’s gotta do, right?
I doubt very much whether any of these posts will be removed, and I am quite sure that Mr Trudeau can take care of himself. I am sure he has nothing to hide but he may prefer to release such information (if accurate) in his own time in his own way, instead of…[Read more]
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I don’t support ambushes by John or on John. My position is, as I said, that Justin has nothing to hide. He, and all of us, are much better served by the truth.
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Let’s be clear here … what Mr Shavluk posted was …
“I really hate to let the cat out of the bag but once just-in for example comes out of the closet on his own cannabis use or not we plan to release evidence that in fact he used some out here in vancouver”
He also posted …
“One you tube video is all it will take at the right time…[Read more]
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He’ll have to decide about answering that one. I only speak for myself.
I will say that we have enough to worry about from the other parties without fighting amongst ourselves. As Jerry Rafferty put to pen ”Clowns to the left of me, Jokers to the right, here I am, Stuck in the middle with you.
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Thank you Robert. Unfortunately, I won’t be able to cheer Jennifer on in person (my son is getting married that day in Texas!). But I will share this information with everyone I can and will be thinking of her (and you) and cheering you both on in my heart – Good luck!
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A buddy of mine sent me the link into a website asserting that hemp oil has amazing potential as a treatment and/or preventative for cancer. What do you think of this theory that it may be because of its ability to stimulate the production of melatonin?
phoenixtears.ca/what-it-does-and-how-it-works/
Rick Simpson:
“She has sent me a great deal…[Read more]
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Peter Skipper posted an update 8 months, 3 weeks ago
#leadershiprace
I hope the race is a race and not a coronation. We need to test the mettle, good graces and acumen of all leadership candidates in the crucible of a well contested leadership contest. Emotional connection to the style and persona of candidates is important but there should be some substance as well for the longer term. You need both.-
Agreed. I want to see JT go head to head with someone as bright as Mark Garneau or Ms Findlay. We need to see all them under pressure.
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I agree with you, we need a true race not a coronation!
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Yes, we need a group of good, strong, intellegent candidates. However, I really hope the number of canadidates does not exceed 8.
When the NDP had their elections last year there were about a dozen people running. Everyone knew that a third of them didn’t stand a chance of winning.
Also, if there is a person you hope will run I suggest you…[Read more]
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Mary, you’ve made my day. This is good party business. Thank you.
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Justin Trudeau is intelligent as well as a great orator and seems to connect with many from young to old. He is not like his father and shouldn’t really be compared to him. I knew his father and I have also heard Justin Trudeau.
In the interveening years Justin has come a long way in his visibility and credability. At the same time I have had…[Read more]
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Mark Carney made it perfectly clear – he doesn’t have any intention to run ( see http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2012/09/28/john-ivison-forget-it-dreamers-carney-wont-be-seeking-liberal-leadership/ )
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So did Justin Trudeau.
As a Canadian, I’m troubled by the notion of the Governor of the Bank of Canada leaving that post to run for political office – even if it would be great for my party if this particular one did. So, for that reason, I hope it’s true that he’s not interested.
On the topic of Carney… I’m just wondering if anyone…[Read more]
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Naheed Nenshi is the most popular politician in Canada. Wonder if he’d make the jump to the Liberals to break the Conservatives stranglehold on the west. Smart, articulate, educated, broadminded and likeable.
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Maybe I am different but I did not believe that anyone who has not won a seat at any time should be be crowned leader of the Party. Or if they have been voted out then they should not be in either as they are obviously not a ”winner” if they can’t win in their riding.
But then I guess $75 thousand is needed no matter who they are. -
I think we are very lucky to have JT in the race, he has the public profile and familiarity that the party really needs right now, he’s charismatic and intelligent. I hope it’s not a coronation either and I don’t think it will be. What the party really needs right now is a leader with intelligence and personality, unfortunately I really don’t…[Read more]
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I agree that we need a race with a number of good candidates. Only that will test the mettle of the people running. But even if a clear favourite emerges early in the race, it won’t be the same sort of coronation we had before, simply because the leader is being chosen by the party as a whole, not just convention delegates. Also – and just as…[Read more]
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Myles, that was my biggest disappointment with how Dion took the leadership. Everything in the end didn’t seem to matter other than how you made deals on the floor to grab more votes. I liked Dion but he wasn’t a strong leader, Ignatieff would have been the better choice at that time however that killed his chances for later as he would always…[Read more]
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Raymond Lebrun posted an update 2 months, 1 week ago
#leadershiprace I have voted and for me the Leadership race is over. I hope that no matter who wins the Leadership we can all get behind our new leader and move forward. Congratulations to all nine members who started this race.
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sure,and may the best man win ;)
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Well said!
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Ok, this is getting ridiculous. How can anyone give Martin a thumbs down when all he said was ”well said”.
Do you not think we should stand behind our new leader whoever that may be?
If not, perhaps you should rethink your priorities.
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Maryanne Kampouris posted an update 2 months, 2 weeks ago
Dear fellow Liberals,
As a member of your National Executive and a neutral steward of the Party, I have been observing the #leadership discourse and I now must engage with you on this topic. I will first disclose that I am not working for any leadership candidate, that I have not yet decided on my vote, and that when all is said and done, no…[Read more]
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Ahhh… the Welcome Voice of Reason. Well stated Maryanne.
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Thanks, I think the majority of us have taken the high road.
Hopefully after April 14th we can all come together and support the new leader no matter who he/she may be. -
Great message Maryanne, thanks for posting and being here with us!
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Andre, Maybe we should hash tag Maryannes’s post (or a similar message) and when the Liberal community.ca “community”, think, someone has step over the ” sites ethics” line, we can just direct them to that hash tag. If a poster got, a few referrals, they might review there commenting style.
To be honest, I think, sometimes, one needs a…[Read more]
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Thanks Maryanne for the reminder.
Not sure a stern warning, is going to do it. IMO, if the system isn’t working, you need to look at, why it isn’t.
Very, wise decision, “not” to shut down the site. I will leave at that!Firstly, The Liberal.ca/community site, with its, running post, latest posts, going up to the top, IMO, feeds the posters…[Read more]
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Commenting to bump this to the top.
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Thank you for this. Certain posters on here do make it very uncomfortable for others who have differing opinions. Hopefully those posters read your post and modify their behaviour. This forum should encourage debate not become a soapbox for those with an agenda.
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Thank you Maryanne! Well said, and necessary.
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Maryanne, I very much appreciate your message.
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See #Liberal.ca ”Code of Ethics”
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Milinda Jones posted an update 3 months, 1 week ago
#renewal I really want to know is how is the Liberal party going to bring Canadians back to the party? I want to know what everyone is going to do to energize and bring back to life the #EDAs. What tangible things can individuals do to bring members to the party. All this leadership talk is good but let’s brainstorm ideas. Please I do not…[Read more]
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Agree with you. I think I have heard from my riding association 3 times since the 2011 election.
How are we suppose to build with that kind of leadership on the ground level?
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Everyone is so busy talking about co-operation or not that the need to talk about actions to get the party moving out of third party status is getting lost. We need to talk about the problems and successes regarding EDAs, events etc.
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I completely agree. The co-operation issue is meaningless if we have broken EDAs. We don’t have to worry about whether a Green or NDP candidate would take the place of a Liberal candidate if a broken EDA nominates an incompetent Liberal candidate anyway!
Also I’m posting this to bump this topic to the top. Seems like that’s what a lot of…[Read more]
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I am very involved in our EDA and I fully agree that this is the next item the Liberal Party has to focus on if we want to have a chance in the next election. It isn’t easy. People’s favorite answer seems to be “call me at election time” They view politics as a 60 day sprint every four years. Unfortunately that will be too late. We have to…[Read more]
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All the policy junkies what ideas do you have to fix the EDA’s what are your suggestions for having superior candidates
Policy junkies what are your ideas for getting things moving. How can we attract new members? What can we do to fix EDAs that are stagnant? How can we change the way things are done on the ground so EDAs are proactive not…[Read more]-
I think one of the things is that the Supporter class will be ongoing and that nominations will be contested.
That means that candidates themselves will have to go out and recruit supporters, which means they will actually have to work to get people involved, including incumbents.
I think this is a good thing. The candidates for nomination…[Read more]
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Please don’t misinform people. Supporters cannot vote for a local nominee, only members can. Supporters can only vote for the Leadership candidate of their choice. This came up at the Ottawa convention, and was voted down by the delegates.
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I sincerely apologize – I was under the mistaken impression that supporters would be able to vote in nominations.
I think it is something that should be considered.
I know there is concern about nominations being hijacked but having a supporter class means you have a lower barrier to entry for people who can be persuaded to vote Liberal.
One…[Read more]
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I do not fear a hijacking from the grass roots, it will open discussions on a local level. If they help choose the candidate, all the better. This will bring people to the polls.
The only way a party can be hijacked is if the party leaders themselves participate. Case in point, the PC CRAP merger. I believe the old loyal PC voters are available.…[Read more]
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Nice philosophy but I’m too old to agree.
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I was under the impression that supporters could vote for the leader but not for the riding.
Only members can vote for who represents the riding. This is a way of getting supporters to become member.
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What i know about EDAs could be written on the back of a postage stamp.So, no solutions from me, other than engage in as much human to human contact as possible – online does not qualify imo.
But one thing that did stick in my mind from the convention when we chose M.Crawley, was the suggestion that S.Copps made – that we appoint a full time…[Read more]-
Now that is a great idea. If it is a paid position then the individual would be accountable. I wonder if this will come to fruition?
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Unaffordable for the EDAs. If Crawley had his priorities straight, then maybe the party can pay for it, but he doesn’t, so we can’t afford it.
Next convention I am voting for someone else. He’s the worst pres ever.-
I agree. Sheila Copps would have been a thousand times better. I voted for her. Also Mike doesn’t seem to know how to dress for the occasion. Always blue jeans.
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As the President of an active EDA, I have a comment and a suggestion.
Comment: keeping an EDA active is tough, but can be done. You just need all hands on deck. If yoiur EDA is stagnant, talk to the President or the VP and find out why. If they ignore you, or seem uninterested to do anything, then take over the EDA. You may contact me, and I’ll…[Read more]-
My particular area was affected by the Valin Commission, thus I will no longer be in my current riding. It will be a new riding. As a newbie the idea of taking over a EDA is not on my agenda. In a perfect situation I want EDAs to communicate with their riding members on a regular basis. Tell me what is going on in the riding and what ways I can…[Read more]
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Unfortunately, this is the old `you can take a horse to water but you can’t make it drink’. All the training in the world will have no effect until the issue of `territory’ is addressed. People who have been ensconced in an EDA for a long time seem to be perfectly happy and, since, like as not, they are on the various `important’ committees,…[Read more]
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Every sitting MP should be obliged to adopt two close non-Liberal ridings and help them establish vibrant riding associations. Period. No excuses. Their job is to help the party win the next election, and that starts right next door to them.
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That sounds like a good idea.
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I think this is a good idea in theory. But in practice some members have seen (including myself) EDAs run completely by the sitting/former MP, with little engagement with the members of the EDA. I think there’d have to be some sort of mechanism in place that once the EDA is up and running that the power goes to the members and not a friend of…[Read more]
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Good idea. But as Shawn said once the EDA is firmly established the membership should be in control.
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MPs actually do “adopt” EDAs and assist in promoting policy events, member recruitment, victory fund drives etc… We have 35 MPs, and 308 (soon to be 338) EDAs… the math is daunting…
Another support mechanism is the PTA, where the Executive Director, the PTA President, field workers, board members etc.. either pro-actily or reactively…[Read more]
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That’s a great question. Part of it would be to have some activities that are fun – social events and get-togethers – barbecues, cocktail parties – and not just fundraisers.
The other is to treat the lead-up to the next election as a training period.
What you want is the best possible list of people in your riding who either will vote liberal,…[Read more]
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If nothing else the supporters could become one heck of a volunteer pool.
Not sure about nominating the local candidate. They certainly can’t vote for him/her…just the leader.
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Douglaid, you are so right.
It seems we only really get together when an election is called. I am in one of the ridings that will be changed before 2015.
Once this is done I am hoping whoever is responsible for the new riding will start getting in touch with people ASAP. -
Also a good question to pose to all leadership candidates.
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My experience with EDA’s, which isn’t much, but enough, to turn me off, is that there are no clear direction or overall theory of what the EDA is to do. If you ask a 100 different Liberals, what is the function, of there EDA, you will get 60 different answers.
Some EDA’s are split from old arguments/disagreements.
Some EDA’s are dependent on…[Read more]-
I agree with pretty much everything Rick has said here.
I’m also shamelessly posting this to bump the topic to the top.
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You may have heard the CPC are already doing this…in their usually underhanded scummy way. By putting failed candidates and party bagmen into swing ridings that they failed to get last time – and on the govt’s[our] dime if they can.A sort of shadow MP.
In some cases they are bold enough to bypass the local mp for PR events or money…[Read more]
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This is a good constructive thread. You may find the EDA section on Liberal University interesting: http://liberaluniversity.liberal.ca/eda/
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What about the suggestion for regional EDAs? Someone(forgive me I forgot who) made the suggestion in another thread.
@Rick I like your vision of what an EDA should be. Huge opportunity for the Liberal Party to get things moving forward.
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Milinda, If you find a way to get the ball rolling, I would like to hear how you did it.
Unless you are EDA presidential material, pretty much a brick wall. I haven’t found a way to push “any” objective along.
Andre keeps pushing the Liberal University info, most of it, I had offered to My EDA in writing, before I was directed to it by Andre.…[Read more]-
@Rick I am perplexed why more members are not talking about the situation with the EDAs. In my view if they are not functioning on an individual basis why have them? It seems a waste of member funds. I will be in a new riding because of the realignment and I am not sure how things will transition. I did take a class on Liberal University and it…[Read more]
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@Milinda, One has to be careful, not to be, just a whiner. Doesn’t seem like I can do, so I am leaving it to those, that, think they can.
I think Bob Rae, said it best, in BC, 18 months ago or so.
If you want to create change in the party, work in the trenches for 3 or 4 years, than we will talk.
Unfortunately, with many EDA, so dis-functional,…[Read more]-
@Rick when an EDA is dis-functional so many opportunities are lost. It is quite unfortunate. I just wish all the candidates would have addressed this particular issue.
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@Milinda, I don’t think the candidates have much or any involvement on how the party structure is set up and how it functions.
This is Mr. Crawley and his team responsibility, which is driven by the membership, supposedly. Lets not lay that issue, on our leadership hopefuls.From my experience, YOU have to decide what you want from the EDA and…[Read more]
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@Milinda, I was thinking about our discussion on the EDA and why they don’t seem to function that well in general.
1/ It is run by volunteers, which brings out the power people. People join for a multiple of reasons. For me, I originally dislike Steven Harper, so decide to get involved. Later, I have come to realize that , “you get the…[Read more]-
@Rick I have only been a party member for about a month and a half, and previous to that I had no party affiliation. Honestly, one of the reasons I joined was because of Justin Trudeau (everyone spare me the middle aged women and hair comments). I have small kids and want them to have the best future possible and I think the Liberal Party has…[Read more]
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It is important that newsletters talk about what’s coming up, not what just went down!
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Part of the problem with EDAs is the role of the president which seems to be seen by the party as the sole link with the riding association.That effectively creates a bottleneck and encourages an elitism attitude. It stresses an hierarchical structure and for a largely volunteer organization, that is a death knell.
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@Stephen my thoughts exactly.
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Milinda, you say you are a mother. I suggest that you approach your EDA with the attitude of a mother , i.e., if I don’t do it no one will. Try to identify a few key people in your EDA who you think you can work with and from there, start holding Outreach events such as Chat at the Pub once a month. Hopefully that way you can find a few…[Read more]
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I did read the hijackers guide. Due to the reorganization of the ridings in Mississauga I will be part of the new riding of Mississauga North. I am trying to see what ideas have worked for other ridings and take some Liberal university classes. I am hoping to bring some ideas to the new EDA.
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I don’t want to sound like somebody who is not enthusiastic any more about rebuilding my local EDA and making it the most progressive, inclusive and members oriented. Unfortunately, Milinda’s question how the Liberal party is going to bring Canadians back to the party created feeling of deja vu for me.
We had this discussion prior to the last…[Read more] -
As mentioned by Jarek, here is the link to the events page for LPCO’s executive board meeting (March 22-24): http://events.liberal.ca/Event/lpco-executive-board-mar-22-24-2013.aspx?Lang=en&mi=A
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I am a Liberal member for almost a year and a half. Our EDA holds monthly coffee chats or on occasion pints and politics sessions in local venues. Everyone is welcome and people get to know each other over the months, the wisdom and the repartee. Invites go out over our distribution list or by a phone tree. With the leadership race, our EDA…[Read more]
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Wow. Now that is an EDA. I have said that something as simple as having a coffee time where Moms could come with their kids or events geared to youth (as examples) would go a long way. I cannot go to evening events like a pub and politics but a day event where I could bring my kids would be nice. How many stay at home moms or dads are we…[Read more]
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I am on the executive of one Liberal riding association. In the past 12 months we have seen an influx of younger people who are concerned about where the Harper government is taking the country, and have joined the party to help fight the next election.
In those 12 months we have started formal building of the riding association. We have agreed…[Read more]
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What great ideas! Congrats!
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That is incredible Glenn. This is what I am talking about. What great ideas!
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Your Liberal Moms & Tots meeting is excellent. I’m not sure how successful it would be because it is sometimes hard to talk with children around but certainly worth giving it a shot especially with the nicer weather coming up you could do it in a playground.
Glenn also makes an important point MAKE a schedule of activites you want to do…[Read more]
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I will support whoever is elected Leader. What bothers me is that each and everyone of the candidates has advanced many new approaches. My hope is that the new Leader will unite this outstanding group into a team that will lead the party in getting our party and all EDAs running on all Fours. We can’t afford to waste this much talent!
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I agree with you. All of the candidates are capable individuals and I hope they all, if they have not though about it, plan to run in the next election.
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If you click on #InternationalTrade you can see my proposal for the printing up of a Liberal Party Dollar based on the idea of CalgaryDollars.ca or The Worgl, Austria Experiment of the Depression era!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W%C3%B6rgl
The Wörgl Experiment
“Wörgl was the site of the “Miracle of Wörgl” during the Great Depression. It was…[Read more]
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Regarding EDA’s, I have found it very disappointing that our previous candidate has attended only 1 meeting in the past 2 years and seems uncommitted to the party and its local organization While I realize it was difficult during the last campaign to select good candidates, I hope that, next time around, we select someone who is prepared to stay…[Read more]
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This is an interesting point. Others and myself have complained that the former MPs have done the exact opposite: they have not let go of power in the EDA.
But, there is something to be said about party loyalty!
So this begs the question: how do we keep committed candidates involved without them wresting power from the members of the…[Read more]
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How about having them responsible for a specific task within the riding such as volunteer recruitment and training. This would also require them to be trained on Liberalist, if they are not already trained. It would be an indicator of how well they are able to organise and mobilize volunteers.
Community outreach would be another spot that they…[Read more]
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#renewal Any more ideas?
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I believe we need to make Outreach to members, supporters and the general public our top priority. Especially in ridings that will be split by redistribution as they will now need 2 EDA Boards instead of just one. We need better outreach material – the postcard format provided on Liberal.ca, which EDA’s are expected to print at their own cost…[Read more]
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@Linda you are absolutely correct we need to outreach to our communities. In my area we have a community centre that is always busy on the weekends and during the day there are 4 seniors clubs that are in the building. Never once have I seen any outreach done at the community centre in the 8 years I have lived in this riding. That is simply not…[Read more]
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Robert Halter posted an update 6 months, 2 weeks ago
Although I have made a few different posts on this subject. After doing a great deal of investigation into the matter. I think it’s not only justifiable, but critically important to repost a more inclusive argument for the Liberals proposal to legalize the use marijuana in this Country.
First of all I would like to state. The…[Read more]
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Good post Robert. Hemp is indeed a truly remarkable (dare I say “miraculous”) plant. Its unhindered use can and will lead to many benefits for all of society. Accepting hemp production can only be aided by the legalization of recreational cannabis (basically hemp with a high THC content). Removing the stigma from this plant is important. Far…[Read more]
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Robert:
I think we need to get the various elements of the research summarized. The hemp angle is important and there are many benefits of hemp but I think we have to address the health aspects very carefully as well.To assist with this I have prepared a paper which consists largely of research references found in this blog. It may be found at…[Read more]
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Wow…..that’s a mighty big list Micheal. but greatly appreciated all the same. There are a number of studies on it that are new to me. Most of my investigating has been focused on other cannabis plants that are of little interest to those interested in those which are grown for their THC value.
I am not in complete disregard to the latter…[Read more]
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Hi Robert:
I checked with Google on schizophrenia and added 2 more references to the paper. These are 13. and 14. under cons.
Your point about defining abuse is a good one. I have a feeling from the Harvard article (13.) that they would say for a teen that more than zero is abuse.The pattern I am picking up is that marijuana does its greatest…[Read more]
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And this is why I cautioned you above Micheal … a question is raised about schizophrenia and cannabis use and you add two more ”CON” articles to your list. Why no ”PRO” articles?
”Doubt cast on cannabis, schizophrenia link” (http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/story/2009/09/02/cannabis-schizophrenia.html)
”Marijuana Compound Treats Schizophrenia with…[Read more]
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Thanks for the references Martin.
I have added them into the white paper except for the A-Z reference. It provides links to schizophrenia but they require a password. If there are some specific sections in there you would like me to include please let me know.
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You can add whatever you like, Michael. But … I thought that a reference that refers to over 100 ailments and diseases whose symptoms may be alleviated by cannabis would be a good addition to a balanced review of health related aspects of cannabis. Instead of only talking about what cannabis does NOT do, we could also talk about all the BENEFITS…[Read more]
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Martin:
OK, here is the first one on ADHD http://www.calgarycmmc.com/adhdbyryanp.htm
This is not random, it is the first one.
Is this the type of thing you want on the white paper?
There are probably 200 links coming from this single web site. Looking at one link could take 5 minutes. And this first link is not very endearing.
I am happy to…[Read more]
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That’s right Micheal … lots of links talking about the up side of cannabis use. That one you picked out specifically says (anecdotal) beside the title.
As I said it is up to you what links you want to add. Basically, I don’t think it is really that important. I think most people already know that there are both good and bad effects from…[Read more]
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Martin:
OK, you don’t want to participate in the white paper and that’s fine.I think there is another fundamental area of research here beyond health. You have made the point that prohibition has not worked in the past but I think we need to look at marijuana very carefully.
This is something people can grow in their backyard. It is hard to…[Read more]
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That’s a difficult question, and I have certainly never claimed to have all the answers.
I am not sure that consumption will necessarily go up with legalization. Cannabis is notoriously easy to access. I think there are those that wish to partake and those that don’t. I t may rise some but I don’t think we’re talking epidemic proportions.
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Martin:
I am not locked in either.
You have reconciled in your mind that there are no serious adverse health effects.
If I could get myself over that hurdle, I would be looking at cannabis as a revenue source.
I would probably discourage home grow-ops because of administrative problems.
Then I would suggest that marijuana be sold in…[Read more]
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I lean more towards treating cannabis more like alcohol than cigarettes – better control I think.
Health Canada is government agency and as such presents the policies of the government and theoretically the people of Canada, they don;t make policy or comment on policy – their “support” is not necessary.
The CMA is a “reluctant” supporter of…[Read more]
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Martin:
Re: Health Canada, they will not change their health assessment because another arm of the government makes cannabis legal. The problem is the electorate and the media will pick up on this for sure. It could be very rocky for whoever has to carry the ball on this one.Thanks for the reference, CMA I have added it to the white paper under…[Read more]
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I have to give you credit for your organization skills, I humbly admit that it is not my strength.
In the pursuit of a healthier safer Canada, I believe we have the same goals.
Believing in open discussions and strong team building I am looking forward to a sound decision making process. This is how good policy is developed. Cheers!
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Michael Smith
Recognizing the value of a healthy community is a service to our country. I thank you for your dedication.
What I cannot support is funds going to organized crime that should go into health care. I believe your proposal (of a weekly limit) will have this unintended effect.
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Robert: I am not sure lay folk can properly interpret the pro and con arguments about marijuana. It would take a task force of scientists addressing the safety issue directly. I agree, it cannot be approved unless it is safe. The “unsafe’ faction seems loath to admit that alcohol abuse is associated with schizophrenia and an overdose of…[Read more]
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Michael: While I applaud your efforts the research the topic of health and cannabis, I caution you on becoming a “gatekeeper” for the articles pro and con on the topic. A Google search for “health and cannabis” returns literally millions of hits. If we use Google Scholar we narrow that down to about 100,000. If we search Google specifically for…[Read more]
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Martin:
As I said at the outset I got the original references from this blog. Then John mentioned schizophrenia so I added a few on that. You gave me 4 more and I added 3 of the 4 because the last one required passwords .I would think on almost any topic we could decide to do zero research because Google has too much information.
I think if…[Read more]
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But the point is Michael, there are THOUSANDS of reputable scientific studies and papers on the effects of cannabis, really … thousands. I don’t see how you pare those down to something that people can easily digest.
And I don’t see the point, sorry. We already know (and most of us agree) that cannabis has some negative side effects, just as…[Read more]
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Hi Michael;
I am not trying to discourage anyone trying to get good medical information. I favor what is best for public health.
Without any medical education, I can not give a direct response to your medical questions. I would like to see more funding at local levels for mental health issues.
What I can do is provide information that is new…[Read more]
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John:
Think of Justin Trudeau explaining legalization of cannabis to a Globe and Mail journalist.The journalist asks “There are a number of studies that link marijuana smoking by adolescents to schizophrenia. Are you concerned about this?”
He then answers that “Adolescents can die from drinking too much water or swallowing their pen caps. …[Read more]
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I think all our candidates are a little smarter than that, Michael. I think a more appropriate response would be:
“Yes, I am very concerned about that. Unfortunately, there are many substances and practices that effect the health of our children. Luckily we control access to most harmful substances in an effort to minimize the risk toy our…[Read more]
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But Martin:
Could we not do the education program on its own without legalizing marijuana?Legalizing may take marijuana out of the hands of dealers on the school ground but the First Nations will probably take over 2/3 of the market and they won’t be checking the ID of every customer.
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I suppose we could Michael, and we probably should have been doing that for years. But we haven’t. Instead we have and the US have a very general “just say no” campaign which from everything I have read and observed, is a dismal failure. Perhaps because kids are too smart. They know adults all around them have been smoking cannabis for years -…[Read more]
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Martin:
Are you sure that more alcolhol was consumed during prohibition than now? I find that remarkable.When looking at the First Nations, I do not think alcohol is the appropriate comparison. I would think marijuana will more likely follow the distribution pattern of cigarettes.
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I never said that Michael. Nowhere did I say that more alcohol was consumed during prohibition than now. Please tell me where I said that.
What I said was that prohibition was a failure. It did not stop people form drinking. In fact, it is widely accepted that the number of people who consumed alcohol, and the amounts that they consumed…[Read more]
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Martin:
OK, people can grow this in their backyard.
How would you suggest we regulate marijuana?-
This Cannabis topic had to be the most discussed topic on the LPC site. But if we get elected it will be legalized, it will be sold through something like our booze stores with all the same type of regulation, so I do not see the fascination with it when there are so many other important policies that we have not adopted yet.
For me just…[Read more]
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Don: I think you and I are on the same page.
I am participating in this topic because I don’t think the Health aspects were taken into account when the resolution was passed by the Liberal Party.
Unfortunately none of the senior Liberals follow this blog so they could well put this in as a plank and hit a buzz saw when the health questions…[Read more]
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Upper price limits must be addressed.
The cigarette distribution pattern that evolves organized crime is a result of over taxation. The goal of reducing consumption overreached its price thresholds and re-created this underground market. It actually lowered the average price and recreated a system to supply youth.
We cannot let this happen with…[Read more]
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John:
I don’t think it is a police problem, it is a RCMP problem.see
$2 billion in tax revenue up in smoke.The First Nations sell a good part of the contraband cigarettes and the RCMP look the other way. They have signs out on the highway “Tax free smokes” and no one says peep.
I suppose its a political problem rather than a police or…[Read more]
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First Nations do not collect tax from sales. Big problem with open borders that should remain open.
How about talking with them as equals.
Not being Native, I have my say through my Federal Governments talks. Still waiting on all issues for some progress.
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John:
As I understand it the FNs are only allowed to sell to other FN people for their own consumption.I would love to treat FNs as equals. Like if the sewer system does not work then tax yourselves so you have the money to fix it. This is what the rest of us do.
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John:
What has it cost us to get cigarette smoking rates down to 18%? And what has it cost us in health care costs to deal with the impact of cigarette smoking?
Yes, we will save in policing costs by legalization but how much will our health care costs go up?
If we had our time over, I am sure we would never have legalized cigarette smoking.…[Read more]
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With all respect, you are assuming use will go up.
Only things that I project to go up is mental heath services and education.
Biggest long term decline will be in youth use especially if your hunch is true.
People lie to doctors, remove the stigma in the name of better health.
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John:
You might be right about this.Portugal decriminalized marijuana and usage stayed about the same.
Now in Portugal its still illegal but you get something like a parking ticket for smoking outside your home.
Are you aware of any places where it has become legal where the usage has stayed the same particularly among teens?
That would be…[Read more]
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Hi Michael;
There is two newspaper reports out of the UK. Not good scientific reviews.
I can not find any good reports on the change in youth rates specifically. Hardly surprising when it is not legal. If you know Portuguese you might have a better chance finding something.
I started this thread
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20648276
John…[Read more]
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John:
What I like is the willingness to study it including the health effects.Thats what I would hope we do here.
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I would like to demand heath care workers study the health effects.
Our funding of mental health is lacking. Putting sick people in jail is making the problems worse. No money for research, little money for treatment.
I propose regulation fees be directed to mental health, education, and outreach programs.
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Something else new. Freedom of Information Request (British Columbia)
http://docs.openinfo.gov.bc.ca/D54329712A_Response_Package_GCP-2012-00241.PDF
Advise to Minister
“If legalization (and decriminalization) is immediately in effect without a
corresponding local (legal) supply that could increase the demand in the short
term. In the longer…[Read more]-
John:
OK, these are bridges we have yet to cross.
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Short story…
I once knew and jammed with a very good blues sax-man who drove a tractor-trailer truck for a living; off-road, woodlands, log haul, night-shift only. He’d smoke 7 to 10 joints before starting his nightly shift.He suffered from schizophrenia. He claimed it calmed his nerves. He also claimed it increased his night vision so much he…[Read more]
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That’s a, um, nice story Douglas. But I fail to see the relevance to this discussion.
Are you suggesting that his marijuana smoking caused his schizophrenia? Many studies show that schizophrenics are more prone to substance abuse of all forms and are particularly drawn to cannabis to alleviate some of the symptoms – so chicken and egg (please…[Read more]
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The point was that the guy truly believed smoking grass was helping him with his schizophrenia (I forgot to mention that his family doctor, also a grass toker) convinced him it would help. And from the event I shared… I would say that it did not help him at all. (see end of my 2nd paragraph)
Yes, the guy was tried just about any other chemical…[Read more]
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John:
Yes, your point about people growing their own is a good one.If there is no demand for contraband because of home grow-ops then there will be no contraband.
But in the same thought, is this stuff not going to be very difficult to control?
If we believe any of this stuff about teen age mental impacts, then do we want this stuff to be…[Read more]
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“freely available in everyone’s backyard”
Alcohol and other ethic issues are already discussed in house holds. Responsible families naturally protect their youth.
I will trust a family structure until a point. That point is the responsibility of Children’s Aid and Family Services. No need to address a problem that already has…[Read more]
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John:
Have you ever stood outside a high school at noon hour.Student’s are not allowed to smoke on school property, so they smoke across the street.
Most of these student’s come from good families where the parents I am sure are discouraging their kids from smoking. But peer pressure takes hold anyway.
I think we would be in rough water to…[Read more]
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If legal harder for youth to buy. A large part of the retail will go out of business. Police would be able to focus on problem areas.
My high school days it was sold in smoking area just outside the door, before the school property restrictions on cigarettes. Bad idea if your concern was cannabis. I do not know if sales at schools changed, but…[Read more]
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John:
Am I right that marijuana leaves a unique pungent smell in your clothes?If so this may be a deterrent for kids who are trying to hide their habit from their parents.
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John:
Here is the first reference in the compendium. http://www.rxmarijuana.com/shared_comments/ADHD4.htm
Do you want me to include this in the white paper?-
This list from John is the same one I posted (the A to Z list). You keep focusing on the first (anecdotal) link. Why? First of all it is a cry for help from a severe sufferer of ADD who finds that marijuana helps him – so my all means, post it! Why wouldn’t you?
But I think the point that both John and I are trying to make is instead of focusing…[Read more]
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Martin:
John’s document was 479 pages long and he asked me to go through it. I turns out that the first item was the same as the first item from yours.I am making a point that you and John are giving me massive documents and reference lists and asking me to go through them and pick out the good ones.
I am asking you and John to read through…[Read more]
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It is fair to ask for information. It is not fair to ask people that are not medical professionals to back up medical studies that they did not write.
Disclaimer, I am not in the position to draw this fine dynamic line.
In the name of being a good team mate, lets not test the lines of division, but recognize the strengths of our teammates.
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John:
Maybe it is inappropriate to try to summarize the research studies.
Why don’t we just assume that Health Canada has done that for us. See http://www.healthycanadians.gc.ca/health-sante/addiction/marijuana-eng.php
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Michael, your desire for sound information is respected.
Do not through away your work.
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IMO, worded like political statement, not medical study.
I think you are more interested in a scientific approach. Cheers!
Marc Garneau perspective will be interesting.
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Its OK John.
I will take my chances,
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John:
Your personal experience with hash is valid but I think we have to go with the science which looks at larger sample sizes and looks at cause and effects in a scientific manner. -
John, I cannot question your sacrifices and dedication. I believe in your cause.
Be careful that you do not put most of the people into your 36% of the population. This is unjust to you and your cause.
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John I have proof that he is not dismissing your facts. His list verifies this. This is an organization skill that is needed.
What I will do is try my hardest to learn what he is trying to tell us. I hear an alarm and I want to verify the fire is out before anyone goes back inside.
I am in no hurry
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Little bit of info John.
When I read your posts I look to see if you gathered your thoughts and expressed them to what I think is your capability.
Why you are rational and do not make negative personal comments = thumbs up
If you openly criticize someone personally = thumbs down
If I do not use thumbs, I restate my position, did not read it,…[Read more]
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Not all Conservatives are beer swilling racists. Your generalizations and aggression offend me. Please stop
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i didnt realize that IQ tests were given by political parties so where do you derive your facts from?
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Actually, they don’t. You can spew all the crap you want but it only makes your other posts less believable. If I know one of your statementsto be grossly untrue then I am less likely to believe you other claims..no?
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if it were completely censured, then the prying eyes must love your spewing. just kidding john. by the way, i did see something about conservatives being dumber, but i wondered what definition was being used to define them: social conservatives (i’d say definitiely!), fiscal conservatives (i’d say not so much), Conservativs (only the real…[Read more]
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I do not believe in voter suppression.
Your vote, your choice.
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ps I hear you about my spelling. Thanks John.
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Hi John;
You gathered your thoughts, it was worth it. Well written.
I am not sure but the last two paragraphs may have been interpreted as threats. Did not bother me but that is the chance you take ;)
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Martin Showell posted an update 2 months ago
#attackads I think this says it all …
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Almost… just needed this link: https://www.liberal.ca/you-just-have-to-laugh/
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Agreed! But I wanted to keep it simple … this is how I think we should respond nationally. People don’t like bullies. I think this is all we need to say. Maybe a voice over with Justin Trudeau saying:
“The Liberal Party of Canada is against bullying in all its forms. Please Mr. Harper, can’t we set a better example for Canadians?”…[Read more]
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Liked.
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Martin:
I hope the bully dummies will keep it up.
Initial indications and research I have done on reactions to the two ads against Justin shows that they may resonate with “Extreme right cons” but generally Non-T Party type Canadians are not impressed.
The fact that the media hunts down Justin for his reaction to the ads gets him/us free…[Read more] -
The most active comment in the G&M on the topic was the following with 65 thumbs up and only 4 thumbs down…
“Its a petty attack from a petty politician.
While there are no formal written rules on political discourse; I think the vast majority of Canadians will agree that the attacking the Liberal leader on his very first day clearly shows that…[Read more] -
Do you recognize a bully when you see one?
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Good one Martin,
Andre, I took Justin’s advice at the bottom of https://www.liberal.ca/you-just-have-to-laugh/ and donated some money to the Liver Foundation.P.S. I raised a bit of money for the Liver Foundation but I bet we could raise more if you made a donation too.
What a way to a send a message to all Canadians “We Liberals, care for all…[Read more]
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I also just donated to the Canadian Liver Foundation. I did it in ”In honour of … Justin Trudeau” and sent Justin the e-card.
(https://secure.e2rm.com/registrant/honor.aspx?TributeType=Honor&EventID=122153)
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For me the worst thing about Harper isn’t his political positions, but rather that he is a man who lacks complete integrity.
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Paula Purdon posted an update 4 months, 3 weeks ago
Liberal #LeadershipRace candidate George Takach says it’s high time to end the prohibition on marijuana. Agree or disagree? http://www.georgetakach.ca/time_to_end_prohibition_on_marijuana
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Agree. We need the revenue. Less damaging than casinos.
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Bravo George! Excellent policy statement. Not only do I agree with this particular policy … I applaud George for making such a clear and specific (and public) policy statement on such an important and contentious issue. The leadership campaign needs more of this. Lets hear more firm, bold policy that will engage the Canadian electorate and get…[Read more]
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I hope other leaderships candidates will follow George’s example – clear and unambiguous declaration of positions on controversial policy issues. We need to know what the candidates are proposing and what policies they truly believe in before voting for them. Platitudes are not enough.
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I agree. A very common sense approach by George.
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Two-thirds of Canadians say yes as of last year. The format for doing so proposed by Takach sounds reasonable.
http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/47901/most-americans-and-canadians-are-ready-to-legalize-marijuana/
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Strongly agree
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Congratulations to George for following in the footsteps of Deborah Coyne and Joyce Murray on this issue. Welcome aboard!
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Roy, Martha Hall Findlay has also endorsed the policy and I believe others have to.
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I have sent my comments directly to George.
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Legalizing, regulating and taxing marijuana will go a long way toward helping us pay for new social policy initiatives. Here’s just one example of the tax dollars that could be generated in just ONE province:
“Based on current consumption patterns, British Columbia’s domestic cannabis market could be worth more than $500-million (in tax…[Read more]
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So George has come out in favour of what is already official Federal Liberal party policy? I am not sure this is that newsworthy.
http://convention.liberal.ca/justice/117-legalize-and-regulate-marijuana/
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It is newsworthy, Clinton. Having a policy officially ”endorsed” by the LPC and having a Leader that will actually make it part of their mandate to push for that policy are two different things.
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With all due respect Paula, you saying it is newsworthy, doesn’t necessarily make it so. Personally, I think it would be newsworthy if a candidate refused to endorse official Federal Liberal Party policy.
To me declaring support for something that is official policy is a little redundant. I wouldn’t expect to see posts like ” So and so…[Read more]
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Clinton, There are probably volumes of Liberal policy but they are seldom acted upon until they are put into an election platform. The fact that a candidate endorses a particular policy is a good indication that he or she is prepared to campaign on it. In a leadership campaign that is news.
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Fair enough. I disagree.
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Under the rules of the Liberal Party of Canada, the leader of the party can veto any party policy they choose to. Just because a policy resolution is passed at a convention does not mean that the leader has to accept or promote it and it certainly does not mean that it will become part the platform in the next election.
A candidate that makes…[Read more]
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I understand why some people think it is newsworthy. I don’t. Reiterating why others consider it newsworthy doesn’t change my mind. I still think a candidate who doesn’t agree with party policy is newsworthy, not one who does.
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As Martin pointed out, the leader is not obliged to implement any passed policy resolutions. This is stated in the Consitution of LPC. During the last convention (just over the year ago), the constitutional amandement to remove the leader policy veto was defeated. The fact that there is such a strong desire within the party to allow the leader to…[Read more]
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I realize that Jarek. Which is why I would consider it newsworthy if a candidate does not agree with party policy, not if a candidate does.
There are over 100 hundred official party policy resolutions. I don’t think it would be constructive or a valuable use of time to have a candidate publicly claim their support for every single one they…[Read more]
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This is the type of policy that needs to be discussed and sold well before it becomes election fodder and George is doing just that.
The war on drugs has devolved into a budget war. But the rewards to the criminals will always be higher than the cost of interdiction measure. It is a war we cannot win and, frankly a war we should have exited years…[Read more]
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Emilie Higginson posted an update 5 months, 2 weeks ago
There’s been a lot of talk abot legalising marijuana. Enough! This already an LPC policy voted on at the convention in Jan.
Ithink we have more urgent things to discuss: the large proportion of Canadians who, for whatever reason, do not share in the prosperity of the nation. Especially the Aboriginal People.
In this fair community, we…[Read more]
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Thank you Emilie for posting this comment. I should have done so months ago. The prevalence of the cannabis issue on this board is obscene when we are being ruled by a dictator and particularly now when we are in the midst of an internationalizing FNs revolution. We should all be supporting FNs, not just because their issues need to be…[Read more]
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What is your blog? WE have Haper to deal with but let’s not forget the NDP. On both extremes of the politcal spectrum we have parties that live on idealism of a few not on the needs of all. Both think their idealism is the answer for all, that the rest of us do not know what is good of us.
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My blog link was in the original comment. Here it is again http://harperwatch.wordpress.com/
I certainly agree with you about the ideology of the NDP however, I and most people I know (Lib or NDP) do not want the opposition parties to start attacking each other. We have to get rid of Harper first.-
I would not suggest we attack the NDP, but I would be very cautious about being labled with them, ie one does not crawl into bed with the demon he does not know just to attack the one he does know. You may get tarred witht he same brush.
I for one does not want any alliance with the NDP, especially an eventual joing of parties, that would be…[Read more]
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I don’t entirely agree Don. While i would much prefer a liberal govt over an NDP one [ merger is surely out, we are too different?] i don’t think it will go on forever [ a binary split in our politics] I fully expect – and will lobby for it – when either a liberal or yes, NDP govt if necessary, gets in, for them to immediately start a national…[Read more]
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We can have minority governments where parties can agree on certain bills and changes without giving formal control to the offical minority government.
There may be times when a coalition is needed, but I believe those are rare circumstances.
We do need some rules on Omnbus, the senate, and especially more then anything else, power given back…[Read more]
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Sure, changing the electoral system is one step. The first step. After that, you are quite right, returning power to MPs, lessening power of party leaders, changing standing orders, any number of improvements can be done. But none of those things has a hope in hell of being implemented under FPTP. Because under FPTP you are asking the guy with…[Read more]
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HI Linda: can people comment on your blog site? How do they do this?
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Actually, there is nothing obscene about the cannabis discussions. The truth of the matter is that a lot of people’s lives have been ruined by cannabis prohibition.
Of course we need to do a lot better at dealing with First Nations also, although I will give credit to the Ontario Liberals for there current handling of the Algonquin Land…[Read more]
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I have to agree with Emilie on this one. I understand how important it is to some of the members, but this site is quickly becoming bogged down with this single issue discussion. JS and MS may need to seek out a more focused (single issue) party to embrace the fight.
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Is that MS me? If so please feel free to use my name – in fact if you use @martin-showell I’ll even get an e-mail.
Did you read my comment on this post? I point out that there have been far more posts and comments on #aboriginal than there have been on #cannabis in the past few weeks. In fact #cannabis makes up a very, very small % of the…[Read more]
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Judging by the thumbs up that Emily and I are getting it Looks like you are loosing this argument.
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If the $108 000 is true, it shows it is not being well spent if conditions overall for Aboriginal peoples are not trending in a progressive way over the past 100 years. Certainly the living standards of most Aboriginals do not match that figure you quote. The Liberal Party is about equality of opportunity and building strong individual skill…[Read more]
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There is equality of opportunity in Canada, unfortunately, it is not always available, where any people or FN people want to live as an intact community. As the population of these communities continue to grow it will and is becoming an economic issue, and we always seem to be one step behind and are too busy patching problems to promote long…[Read more]
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Don, I appreciate your forthright opinions about matters as it certainly describes you as an individual who wants to get things done and have a say which is admirable. I believe many Canadians would dispute your claim however that there is equality of opportunity for all in Canada. The challenges you point out of isolated communities without a…[Read more]
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You got me there, many would not agree that there is equality of opportunity, and I agree that there is a great short coming on opportunity, but that can be many faceted, I narrowly was aiming at the opportunity to move to other locations to find work, not on things like opportunity for education for the poorer of us.
I was also referring to non…[Read more]
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Unfortunately, the idea of buying out FN and moving them from their traditional lands and activities is just the old colonial policy taken to its final extremity. FN are only in congregated communities on reserves because the colonial administration wanted it that way. These reserves are our creation, not theirs, and are now the little that they…[Read more]
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Very well noted, we are failing to understand sustainability, as we sell off our resources at alarming rates, because we think we have a surplus, while we shut down our towns and lower many to the poverty levels to compete with other nations who live in poverty with “free trade” not “fair trade”.
You have some misconceptions or reserves as I see…[Read more]
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Exactly, we have decided we want to legalisze, so until we are in power all the rest is pointless, there will be time to dicuss the wheres and hows once we are governing.
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John, what is your real politcal leaning, beyond cannabis. Which party would you belong to if all supported cannibs equally, are their other issues you are concerned about equallly?
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I agree that the Aboriginal People especially are exposed to poverty. However, we have to remember that the poverty is spreading among significant number of Canadian families with an unprecedented speed. It’s time to address this issue with the goal of making sure that all Canadians are benefititing from our country economic grow.
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That’s interesting Emilie, looking back over the posts for the last couple of weeks I see about ten times as many posts discussing #aboriginal issues than I see #cannabis posts.
Why do you feel that you need to bash one policy discussion to promote another? Surely there is room for any/all discussions to take place.
Feel free to make your posts…[Read more]
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I hasve top agree with Emilie on this one. I understand how important it is to some of the members, but this site is quickly becoming bogged down with this single issue discussion. JS and MS may need to seek out a more focused (single issue) party to embrace the fight.
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Is that MS me? If so please feel free to use my name – in fact if you use @martin-showell I’ll even get an e-mail.
Did you read my comment on this post? I point out that there have been far more posts and comments on #aboriginal than there have been on #cannabis in the past few weeks. In fact #cannabis makes up a very, very small % of the…[Read more]
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I don’t believe you are Liberal…I am not entirely sure what party best suits you but I think this party is too close to centre. i think you have probably tried a few on for size. I have asked you before, why you chose the Liberal party. Can you please explain why you are “one of us”? Note that i am not attempting to be confrontational. I…[Read more]
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I happen to like reading posts by @martin-showell. I think he’s a great contributor to discussions of all sorts on this forum.
I don’t think anyone should be suggesting that someone should find a new party; that’s just not very civil. No one should have to justify themselves as if on trial of why they are a member of the Liberal Party
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I sincerely want to know what has drawn Martin to the Liberal Party. I think that is a legitimate question,that if asked, I would answer.
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Roger Palfree posted an update 9 months, 1 week ago
#leadershiprace I really do not see Justin Trudeau as ready for leadership, although I am willing to change my mind if the evidence is presented well. After all, I did join the Liberal party,
But we do not want this leadership race to sink to the level of a reality show where people who do not understand what a leader must accomplish…[Read more]
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Agree, we need a wide open ideas based debate from as many candidates as possible. We’ll get to see if Justin measures up for the job or not. I’m sure Mr Garneau will either bring out the best in JT or point up his flaws….it should be fun.
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If Justin Trudeau doesn’t run there will always be a section of the liberal party that thinks ”WHAT IF”. He is not my first choice as leader, that vote goes to Dominic LeBlanc. Let’s hope that enough good candidates get on board and this includes people who do not hold office at the moment.
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He’d be my first choice of the undeclared candidates :) Of the declared candidates, I simply don’t know enough about them. Also, if we choose a leader who is not already an MP, we are going to end up spending a ton of money to get them elected – the CPC will put up a ton of money to keep them out and they have more money than Jesus.
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MP status not a problem in this case, though, and I think Jesus never had much money ;-)
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Jesus did not need any money or want any money and we all know the reasons. Perhaps we should use a different analogy. We all recognize the spirtuality of Jesus, and his underpiinnings as to who He was.
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Voted you up on principle, but i don’t think it does any good for us to complain any more. For one thing it only encourages those few who do troll, and for another it’s impossible to figure out those who just want to register legimate disagreement. But i sympathize. It would be nice for everyone to register why they thumb down.
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That’s the attitude i like to hear.
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In my opinion, two things are needed to make the next leader of the LPC successful:
1. The LPC members and supporters need to take control of the upcoming debate and contest. “We” need to tell “them” what our goals are and what policies we want to champion and what our platform should look like and then pick the leader that best represents and is…[Read more]
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You and Kirk make a very good point about the long-term view, which I will keep in mind as the race develops. I will also be looking quite keenly at the shorter term too. I would not like to see the party take an even greater hit in the next election, and I would like to be sure that a strong hand on the tiller shows clearly a new course for the…[Read more]
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Really well said, Martin.
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Well said Martin…….However not like you, I am very commuted to to a certain leadership candidate. I am because the local candidate in my riding whom I plan to nominate and am presently campaigning for ,has been attracted to run for us in Brandon Souris as a result of a certain individuals leadership bid.
Should this not be so. I would…[Read more]
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I agree about the need for a strong leadership election process.
However, I think it’s a very important quality of the next leader that they be able to keep the Liberal Party moving forward electorally.
The next election will not see a Liberal government. Best case scenario is winning govt in 2 elections. And that requires both someone who is a…[Read more]
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Hi Kirk
Just curious, why you think the next election will not see a Liberal Government. My thinking is if the Liberal Party comes up with the best policies and elects a Leader who can successfully sell them across the Country, the sky is the limit. Of course I also believe ”that nothing is more powerful than an idea who’s time has come”
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How about a circus instead of a reality show, Roger? Somewhat like the circus in parliament. Droves of people would follow the race since most love to get a dose of endorphins from laughing at us. Our party has fallen so low that we are advocating the controversial policy of legalizing marijuana. Should we also encourage comedians to join the…[Read more]
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. Our party advocates the legalization and regulation of marijuana because it is good, sound policy that will benefit Canada in terms of personal freedoms, economics and crime reduction … not because “we have fallen so low”.
. Intelligent people are often very funny. Funny people are not necessarily intelligent. Therefore, while a good sense of…[Read more]-
I agree, the last thing we need to do is make a mockery of the upcoming leadership race, although I think Jerry’s comments were an attempt at humour. Canada is not really known for having funny political leaders, although Jean Chretien and Bob Rae both have a decent sense of humour and aren’t as robotic as Harper or angry as Mulcair.
I also…[Read more]
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Oh, I know Jerry was trying to be funny … I just think he missed the mark … by a mile. As I said in another comment, a good comic “knows his audience”!
I would not want a leader that had no sense of humour and no style, flair, elan! I think that this may give Justin Trudeau a clear advantage over Mr. Mulcair or Mr. Harper in that…[Read more]
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I ask for forgiveness for failing to be funny. (I must be very religious, since this is not the first time I have asked.) I pledge to understand my audience, work harder and hone my craft. There are certain things about which one can’t joke. If we actually have an upcoming coronation, perhaps I cannot joke about the king? (Even though most…[Read more]
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I just hope you’re a better doctor than you are a comedian, Jerry :-)
So, a man goes to doctor. Says he’s depressed. Says life seems harsh and cruel. Says he feels all alone in a threatening world where what lies ahead is vague and uncertain. Doctor says “Treatment is simple. The great clown Pagliacci is in town tonight. Go and see him. That…[Read more]
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Actually, I am terrific at both and politics too. And that is no joke! Nice joke I had not heard, Martin. Many comedians lead sad lives. e.g. Lenny Bruce, Jackie Gleason (his theme song was “Melancholy Serenade”, Phil Hartman. Of course, tragedy and comedy go together and balance life. I think the Liberal Party of Canada, whether it lives…[Read more]
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I do not believe we are planning to elect a dictator and we have to choose the one who presents his policy platform that we like best. I think, at least I think, that we must have policies that the membership want and then choose a leader who seems most able and willing to lead and promote the policies we want. Parties should have distinct…[Read more]
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How about John Crosbie? Some failed to find his ’teguila sheila’ comment funny, even though he said it in the circus known as parliament.
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So sorry you missed the point, John. I am a comedian. Encouraging the party to laugh at itself…because others will. So the jokes on you. (btw I have been with the party, provincially and federally, for over 25 years including being a riding president. I worked with Dalton McGuinty and George Smitherman to bring about needed health care…[Read more]
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The thing is, if you are a comedian, you should know one of the first big rules of comedy … Know your audience!
Judging by the thumbs down count, I think you misread this audience a bit.
Encouraging the party to laugh at itself is fine, but attacking our policies, attacking one of our icons, trying to turn our leadership contest into a joke,…[Read more]
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Jerry,
As you can see, there is still fire in the Liberal belly and we can come together when someone attacks.Great to see the passionate responses everyone.
By the way Jerry, I’m not sure if mentioning your association with Dalton, George Smitherman, and health care is going to increase your ”Likes” around certain parts of this country !!!
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And here I thought everyone loved Dalton and George….sort of like the Barack Obama and Joe Biden of Canada. What part of the country, and for what reasons? BTW, I did not see my post as an ‘attack’. More like a good natured ‘roast’ or a ‘pat’. (Many tough-skinned politicians have told me that they don’t care what people say about…[Read more]
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John, while I agree (see my comments) that what Jerry wrote was at the least, not funny, and at the most, offensive, I don’t think it is a good idea to accuse people on this site of being conservative spies or operatives.
Just because you don’t agree with someone’s line of thinking, doesn’t automatically make them the enemy.
I do not agree…[Read more]
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Whatever, John. Of course you are entitled to your opinion, I don’t agree, however, that you have an entitlement to attack someone’s credibility and attempt to smear them. But, if you think that helps your, or the Liberal, cause … you go right ahead.
Just because 77% of the LPC favoured resolution 117 doesn’t mean that those that didn’t…[Read more]
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I do not believe we are planning to elect a dictator and we have to choose the one who presents his policy platform that we like best. I think, at least I think, that we must have policies that the membership want and then choose a leader who seems most able and willing to lead and promote the policies we want. Parties should have distinct…[Read more]
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Based on what I know to date, I lean toward Marc Garneau. Still, a party leader has to engage voters. It would take a great deal more information to discount any of the candidates, least of all Justin Trudeau. Methinks democracy is not about holding private opinions and speculating from there, as the HarperCons, who select one issue one…[Read more]
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I agree that the party should be about ideas and policies. But we also need a leader that can discuss and debate in a public manner, not just in caucus and committee. Marc Garneau is obviously highly intelligent. Before entering politics he was an astronaut, which is one of the coolest jobs in the world. Yet he has not turned that super cool…[Read more]
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Good debate is healthy, but having the best policy did not win the last elections. A leader that can attract voters, with a team that can deliver great policies will deliver results.
If you think that teenagers are the only people that he will bring to the ballot box, think again. Still doubting the star appeal, look at the picture of Justin with…[Read more]
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According to Brian Mulroney anyone in opposition, who under estimates the political abilities of this very talented fine young man will be in much peril. Now I know there’s no lost love between Mulroney and Harper, but all the same, he probably knows a lot more than most of us know about some of the potential consequences having Justin as a…[Read more]
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How old does JT have to be to be judged “ready”? My current favourite is Marc Garneau. I perceive both (and others) as potentials. From my perspective JT should ensure brain is engaged before putting mouth in motion and Marc should ensure that mouth is engaged in generating compact results. It’s a long, long time to the vote. I do not know who…[Read more]
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Douglas Brydges posted an update 1 year ago
#leadershiprace
As Moderator André Brisebois has pointed out, anything reported in the media since it went ballistic over the last day or two – about Mr. Rae being pre-approved to run for the leadership – is pure speculation and, I expect (in most cases), based on less than accurate assumptions rather than fact.Speculation that an ‘Elect Bob…[Read more]
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Well said Doug!
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Lengthy and more of the same.
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PS: My apology for several spelling errors, duplicate and orphaned words in my lead post.
Being able to EDIT one’s posts would be a most welcome add-on feature. -
Excellent post based on solid facts summarizing what is known about Mr. Rae’s aspirations to the permanent leadership. It’s obvious that if Mr. Rae decides to run, he will be breaking the promise given to the members and the the Executive Board. The refusal to acknowledge this simple fact is like burying your head in the sand.
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God help us all if the board goes back on this decision and Rae’s pledge made in writing. Many of us may well have to find another party.
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#leadershiprace
It would appear National President Mike Crawley has been experiencing some pressure to have the National Board clarify whether Mr. Rae should be bound to abide by the Interim Leadership conditions set out by the National Board last May. Mr. Crawley was on Evan Solomon’s ”In the House” program on CBC Radio Saturday morning,…[Read more]-
I second your last point!! Mr. Rae has been invaluable to the rebuilding effort, buying us time to choose a leader carefully. If he were to stay on as interim leader and bow out of a leadership contest, he could keep the LPC in the spotlight on other files while the leadership candidates have their debate.
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André Brisebois posted an update 2 months, 1 week ago
#leadershiprace Some members here have raised some questions on whether or not the details of the Leadership Results will be provided. Here’s the scoop:
At some point in the evening, during the official Results Announcement on Sunday April 14, the Chief Electoral Officer will report the number of votes cast and the number of points required to…[Read more]
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Thanks, that is open and fair.
It will be interesting to know where each candidate stands with the people.
Should help the new leader realise what our priorities are. -
Thank you for the clarification.
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John Anderson posted an update 4 months, 3 weeks ago
I am not quite sure how this works, but here goes anyway.
There seems to be one issue about which we have all complained mightily, but on which it seems that the leadership discussion has been completely silent.
This issue has two related facets: (1) restoring the supremacy of Parliament as the legitimate government of Canada,…[Read more]
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John:
I don’t quite follow this. Are you saying that the Privy Council develops policy?I always thought they were developed in the various committee meetings.
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Good Morning Michael:
I guess I did not make myself clear, so let me try again.
The point I was trying to make is that members of the Public Service have a legitimate, even vital, role to play in the formulation of public policy if for other other reason than because they are in a unique position to provide “evidence” on which the formulation…[Read more]
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John:
OK, now I understand.Can I give you a good example. When they conducted the inquiry into the Afghan prisoner transfers, one of the Foreign Service personnel (Richard Colvin) spoke out about prisoner abuse. Peter MacKay stood up in parliament and did everything possible to discredit this guy. Eventually he was transferred out of…[Read more]
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Maryanne Kampouris posted an update 9 months, 1 week ago
#WeAreLiberals
To all Members of the Liberal Party of Canada,We have heard many people say that they do not know what our Party stands for, or that we don’t communicate our offering to the Canadian public. One recent initiative was the creation of our What we stand for page with links to policies adopted by the Party during the 2012 biennial. …[Read more]
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Thank you Maryanne!!! This is exactly what we have been waiting for – something that expresses who we are, what we stand for. I realize it’s a work in progress but what a great start, Bravo to you, Mike, the National Board and all the members who worked so hard to make this a reality. You all have my full support.
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I can’t wait until this is finalized and we can use this to stake out and reclaim our position on the political landscape. Using these points and combining them with compelling messaging for Canadians allowing us to better frame the debate and engage with Canadians in a meaningful way. Gone will be the days of “you don’t stand for anything,…[Read more]
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It is our members who should be thanked, for answering such questions as ”Why are you a Liberal”, and for submitting their vision of the Party with persistence and clarity. I look forward to input now that the information has been distilled and formatted for member review.
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Maryanne, Great work. I am sure their will be some wordsmiths out there, that will want to change a word or phrase but this what we were asking for.
Question: These are words like the the other political parties. Such as being “transparent” that put the conservatives out front in 2006. We all know, along with many Canadians, how well that was…[Read more]-
Good observation Rick,
What makes the Liberal Party of Canada different is that it is truly a party where the management is accountable to its members. You remind me regularly that I have obligations to consult and to provide stewardship of the Party on your behalf.
I believe that by finalising this together we are agreeing to abide by the…[Read more]
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Looking good.
One comment would be to provide a succinct sound-bite of what the document is trying to say…something clear and memorable…short slogan…
Something like ’Making Canada Better’ or ’Making Canada Better for All Canadians’…
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Fantastic. I love it. Thank-you.
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There was a suggestion that we might holdl a contest for the best short summary catch phrase. It would have to be anchored in the principles of the statement…. this is the first of the 4 week consultation…something to think about.
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Maryanne, You asked for short, sorry, can’t to express the point.
I take your point, “a Liberal party for the people, ruled by the people”. If these where normal circumstances, old past Canadian days, I may agree, that would be sufficient.In my opinion, Canada parliamentary governance is broken. Steven Harper conservatives have lowered…[Read more]
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Hey Rick, I just noticed that I didn’t reply directly to this… so this is a quick note to let you know that your comments will note be lost.
The beauty of this Party is that you as a member can initiate dicsussion on all of these points. We are developing mechanisms that will make that discussion easier.
Maryanne
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That is wonderful, Maryanne! Thank you thank you for getting ethics in there! My first read through and I didn’t see anything I want changed. I’ll let it sit in my mind and then read it again to be sure.
I am concerned (no matter what it ends up saying, really) that ordinary members understand “this means you, too” Because, while I take…[Read more]
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Good point Jennifer, this is indeed a contract we are making with each other… it should represent what we believe, and we should act in accordance with those beliefs. I would expect this to not only be a test of our policies, but also our behaviour towards each other and fellow Canadians. Which is why we need as many of our members to read…[Read more]
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I like Jennifer’s idea of us all signing this document, very much. But I think it needs to be more visible, a stronger statement than just signing the back of a card. Something Canada will see and can be a part of, if they choose.
I can see a cross-country “signing” event. Rallies and parties all held on the same day when we come out together…[Read more]
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Hi Martin, This an interesting proposal, and would take a lot of organisation. I agree that we should do something special when this is finalised. Just not sure what yet.. so all suggestions are gratefully accepted.
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Very nice. Like it a lot. It is so rewarding to see so many of the thoughts and ideas that we have all shared here and elsewhere. Good job!
One suggestion … for the principals section … I was very happy to see the inclusion of “environmentally healthy” in the mission statement portion (at the top). Could we also perhaps add something about…[Read more]
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Thank you for this suggestion Martin, This is something on which several people have commented: Clean environment / Healthy environment / more emphasis on the environment.. etc.. this repeated message will be looked at.
Regards Maryanne
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A good start!
Now set the marketing wizards loose on it and see what we get, better let the leadership aspirants pay someone to do just that.
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Thank you for this Sean, much appreciated. MK
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Thank you Shane, with 3 days to go I am looking forward to collatiang all of the comments and seeing to the required changes. Regards Maryanne
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Roger Palfree posted an update 1 year ago
#leadershipRace
Bob Rae’s decision not to run in the leadership race, though surprising, is consistent with his sincerity in wanting to do what is best for the country via the party. He is a great interim leader, and I am delighted he will continue that vital role. He has opened up the leadership race to attract a lot of attention to the party…[Read more]-
That’s true. His decision has given the LPC good press coverage and completely taken the wind out of Stephen Harper’s sails.
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Helen Hanratty posted an update 1 year ago
#leadership: Well done, Mr. Rae. We can be proud of you.
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Jennifer Eve posted an update 1 year ago
#leadershiprace Mr. Rae is, I believe, a fine statesman. I am disappointed by the decision to allow him to run. This is precisely the type of turnabout on policy that makes our party look bad.
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Why?
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John Halonen posted an update 3 months, 2 weeks ago
Justin Trudeau campaign draws 150,000 supporters to Liberal party.
And I am one of them.
We need Trudeau as much as he needs us.
We must rid ourselves of the Conservatives under Harper before Canada is destroyed!
#leadershiprace-
Someone once told me this about PET:
sometimes you love him,sometimes you hate him, but he always tells you what he thinks. For that you always respect him.If Justin can be like his father in this way he will do well. Always tell the people the truth even if it is not what they want to hear. In the long run they will respect you for it.
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Could not have put it better.
With Harper no one knows, what he is going to do, even his own co-horts.-
Hi John! Welcome to the Party Sir!
Until I met Ms. Martha Hall Findlay in person I thought the same way as you do! Frankly I do believe that Justin will win this but I would love for Ms. Martha Hall Findlay to come in a strong second place because she has given me the impression that she is the leadership candidate who can get Blue Liberals and…[Read more]
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I am of the opinion that this other method of climate stabilization through the desalination of ocean water and producing food in desert areas has the potential to usher in a new era in our relationship with the Islamic nations and Israel!
https://www.facebook.com/events/408848322534135/?ref=22
Martha Visits Antigonish, NS
…..This message…[Read more]
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So let me get this straight. You are a member of the Liberal Party of Canada and you voted for a Conservative in the last election.
It is your democratic right to vote for whoever you wish. However, you are supposed to support the Liberal candidate in your riding so long as you remain a member of the LPC.
Am I missing something here? People…[Read more]
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Hi Alton: After I spent over a year in Ecuador and saw real poverty I wanted to become more involved. I ran for public office three times as an independent…but I wanted to find a party. The Liberal Party is clear in taking climate change seriously…..whereas Conservatives tend to be climate change skeptics….but I personally believe that…[Read more]
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canada is way up there in greenhouse gas emission per capita. you can’t compare a country of 35 million to another of over a billion (china). and the fact is that oil sands production is one of the largest energy emitters. we are in the process of reducing coal-fired electicity, but the rapid increase in developing the oil sands far outstrips…[Read more]
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Valid concerns Peter Haley and I would love to get your opinion on a theory that I put forward on the #Science forum regarding the Stanley Meyer hydrogen fuel dune buggy? I may be wrong but I can’t help but suspect that by proving to be an even better ally in assisting Israel to attain peace with Jordan….we might just give the Prime Minster of…[Read more]
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The term ”highly competent” loses all meaning when applied to Peter MacKay.
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Hopefully he is gone next election after bungling his way through defense purchases in between taxpayer funded helicopter fishing trips.
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Anybody who is engaged to Miss World Canada isn’t all desperate to go fishing in Newfoundland but is probably there partly to have something to talk about that is of interest to many members of the Canadian Armed Forces!!??
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Actually, a friend of mine who is an active member of the NDP recently stated in one of their meeting that the best way to get reelected in the next provincial election would be to hire the kind of people that Mr. Peter Mackay hires to work in his office!!!!!!!
Mr. Mackay wisely ”hires up!”
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With the exception of Murray, this crop of Liberals are taking the oil sands more seriously than the environment…
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Just because someone voted Conservative last time does not mean that they are plants. There are plenty of Blue Liberals and Red Tories who come into the circle. Like me, some choose to stay. These folks tend to have conservative-leaning economic ideas but are still quite liberal in a socio-political sense. Like me, there’s no way I’ll support…[Read more]
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John, you might want to reread Dennis Tate’s post. He joined the Liberal Party in 2009 and states that he voted for Peter Mackay again in 2011. That means that he is a Consevative and not a Liberal.
The Liberal Party spent muti millions in the last election. The candidate and FLA in Mr Tate’s riding spent 95K$ in the last election and will…[Read more]
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I joined the Liberal Party because it closest fits my outlook on politics, society and the economy. I won’t comment on your “obligations” but I think your understanding and my understanding is somewhat different. As a party member, the party should be asking me and others what I think and draft policy accordingly. I won’t be taking marching…[Read more]
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John, one of the main points behind political party membership is the expectation by the party and its membership that the individual member will vote for the party candidate in their riding. That is one of the obligations associated with party membership.
There is absolutely no point in making a commitment to one political party and then voting…[Read more]
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Alton, to some degree I understand your position. The other side to the equation is that over the next three years a peace deal could potentially be made between Canada, Jordan and Israel. Mr. Justin Trudeau, Ms Martha Hall Findlay or whoever else is chosen to lead the Liberal Party could be in the middle of this….but they need to be free to…[Read more]
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Alton, be my guest and report me to officials in the Liberal party suggesting that my membership be revoked! This will mean that several highly ranking officials will discuss the full case and if they feel that I am correct that we are in an extremely auspicious position to accomplish something of value by debating climate change with Mr.…[Read more]
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Wow!! Extremely well said John!! I listened to speech after speech by Mr. Ignatieff on CPAC in 2011 and they were simply too general and too similar….I think of them as “The Hope Lectures”…..Yes they were 98% politically correct and polished and enunciated perfectly….but I needed more specifics….I needed to be told clearly some of the…[Read more]
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Alton, I don’t blame you for being angry with me! I knew perfectly well that was coming when I did it….but if Canada decides to elect a Liberal P.M. in 2015 or 2016 the possibility of convincing Mr. Mackay to walk across the floor….is real and should be considered…..the fact that Mr. Mackay takes climate change seriously and knows the area…[Read more]
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Alton, so your view of party membership is that I pay $10, pay a monthly Victory fund amount, do work for free year-round and then expand that volunteerism during election periods–and lose the right to my own vote? I agree with everything but the vote part. That is mine and I’ll do with it what I please.
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Jennifer do you read what you post? Do you understand what it means to be a member of a political party?
Nobody is suggesting that you give up the right to vote for whomever you chose just because you have chosen to join the LPC. However, it is important to realize that the Liberal Party exists to elect its candidates to parliament and elect…[Read more]
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Nonsense. I joined the Liberal Party to make it better in practice, and to uphold the principals and vision it says it believes in. I’m thrilled with our new “what we stand for” for example. I strongly believe in those concepts. But, if the candidate in my riding is not the best candidate in my riding, or believes that all of those things…[Read more]
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Jennifer, I thought you were a supporter of Proportional Representation. Did I get that wrong? (sorry if I did). But if you are, I’d be interested in understanding how you rationalize PR with your above statements regarding voting for a CANDIDATE as opposed to voting for the PARTY. My understanding of “pure” PR is that the vote is for the party…[Read more]
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Thank you for your question, Martin. When PR advocates in Canada say “PR” they almost never mean pure PR, which is a dumb system that causes the problems highlighted by people who don’t like PR. So, as an advocate of PR in Canada, I mean Single Transferable Ballot, or Mixed Member Proportional or P3, or some system that has an element of…[Read more]
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Well now, that’s what I think too. Interesting. I wish advocates of ”PR” would take the time explain this to others. I get it, but I think many don’t, which causes a lot of problems when people see just ”PR”. I actually thought this was your position but wanted to provide you an opportunity to explain it. More of us should take the time. In this…[Read more]
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Well, it is very nice to completely agree with you, for a change :)
I even agree with the concept that it really isn’t PR vs. PB because it can easily be PR AND PB–and I think it would a) be easier to come to an agreement on one system and b) get more things to like if we go with the combination of the two in one system or another. I am well…[Read more]
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Well, we even agree in our disagreement. We both agree that it is imperative that Harper is defeated in 2015. I believe he will be. I do not believe that he has any hope of another majority and quite possibly won’t win a minority. This is why I so vehemently disagree with cooperation. We don’t need it and the risk is too high. As was pointed out…[Read more]
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I deeply appreciate your comments Jennifer! For the record at the time of the last election I was reading a lot about the Global Dimming effect, specifically the Maldive Island study, which makes a clear policy on climate change necessary! There is a real danger of a well intentioned by not so well informed group of bureaucrats coming up with a…[Read more]
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Thank you immensely John! I actually visited the offices of the NDP and Green Party several times before finally deciding to go Liberal. I have friends in all the other political parties and when an opponent does or writes something that I believe deserves at least some credit….I want to jump on it so that they don’t stop!!!??
I admire your…[Read more]
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no you are not missing anything..he’s easily sucked in by reform/com crap.
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I think you said it best in your first sentence. I could support Liberal policies and ideals but have no respect for the Liberal candidate in my area. I might not vote Tory, in fact would not, but I wouldn’t support my local candidate either.
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Dennis, you obviously don’t understand what it means to be a member of a political party. If you can’t see your way clear to vote for the LPC candidate in your riding then you are obligated to leave the party. Peter MacKay is a cabinet minister in the present Conservative government. You do not have the right to vote for anyone other than the…[Read more]
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Where on earth does it say in the membership form ”Thou must vote Liberal come hell or high water from hereon out”
Why bother finding quality candidates if a potted plant is good enough? I don’t know the Liberal candidate in MacKay’s riding and I have a very hard time imagining I wouldn’t prefer him/her over MacKay, but that wasn’t my vote.
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Jennifer , Dennis Tate is a supporter of the CPC MP in Central Nova. He paid his membership to our party but actually votes for the other guy and he thinks that the other guy is doing a great job.
This isn’t an issue of voting rights. You don’t seem to understand this. If you aren’t a supporter of the Liberal candidate in your riding and,…[Read more]
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I absolutely agree that MHF would make an astonishingly strong candidate. She is smart, has a huge CV, interesting viewpoints, and is very personable. I can see her on the international stage as PM but have trouble with JT and that image.
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She also has the potential to become Mr. Justin Trudeau’s right hand woman in the event that he is elected Liberal Party Leader. I got the impression when I met her that she has forty to eighty more IQ points than I do….she also has that drive to win that athletes have……The fact that she came out in support of a particular pipeline project…[Read more]
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JT presents himself as a nice young man with good intentions and able to deliver bombastic and opaque speeches. He should campaign for others who have something clear to say.
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Lol. Justin is very clear about real electoral reform – NO WAY!
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Now Patricia … that’s not really true is it? Justin Trudeau DOES support electoral reform. He is a strong supporter of preferential balloting.
I think what you really meant to say is he doesn’t support your, personal view of electoral reform.
Let’s at least try to keep the facts straight and not tell untruths about the candidates we don’t…[Read more]
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Preferential balloting is just slightly better than 1st past the post. It still leaves a number of voters disenfrachised. It is still not democracy but more of a popularity contest.
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You could say that about any voting system. By definition, voting is a popularity contest. The issue I have with PR is, as far as I can tell (and I find this notion `odd’), the selection idea.
PB works as well as you can expect any system to work. As far as seeing it as a popularity contest? I lived in Oz for years, have had some experience…[Read more]
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Many in Oz are clamoring for PR in the lower house having experienced it in the Senate. I understand that it is in wide use in state gov’ts too.
http://www.openforum.com.au/content/proportional-representation-will-bring-voters-back
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Only the fans as here.
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For excellent and clear explanations of various electoral systems please see:
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This is great, George. I had not noticed this before.
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It is interesting that this topic, named LeadershipRace, became a discussion about cooperation and PR system. I am happy to note that only JM had the audacity to bring these hot topics into the race. This makes her stand out facing her competitors who are unable to respond with progressive arguments if any at all.
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I agree!
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LOL – It was turned into discussion about cooperation and PR by three or four aggressive posters on this and a few other threads who are attempting to monopolize the discussion on liberal.ca and turn it into a campaign vehicle for their preferred candidate. Notice how instead of starting a thread that is pro JM, they chose instead to launch their…[Read more]
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The only ’danger’ is to win while cooperating and then implement a PR system. This is more important for Canada than anything else.
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I was not aware that the LPC had endorsed PR. I believe we endorse some form of electoral reform but that the actual workings of that are still unknown. At best I believe we officially support PV.
So, not only is your assumption that the only way to get electoral from, is through cooperation wrong, so is your assumption that the LPC supports PR.…[Read more]
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It’s ironic that you would suggest that LPC supports this or that policy as if all policy were cast in stone. I thought the members/supporters were voting on a leader who hopefully has vision and isn’t merely a representative of LPC policy
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(I’m not sure you understand the meaning of the word ironic as it does not apply in this case)
No policy is ever “cast in stone” and the leader can veto policy adopted by the membership and can create their own. However, a leader that ignores the wishes of the membership would obviously be in jeopardy of losing support.
At our conventions we…[Read more]
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George, how do you think Marc’s departure will affect JM’s campaign?
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The ’ JT’s competitors’ camp lost an important colleague. I am disappointed that he bailed out but I can understand that he would not want to be the ’loser’. But I am completely flabbergasted that he supports JT now. He was the one who continuously repeated the ’JT is not the right stuff’ mantra. What happened there? Was it all a theatrical…[Read more]
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It is amazing that you did not bother to even read MG’s remarks. You are so anti-Trudeau that you missed completely where MG challenged JT to answer his questions and when JT did, MG accepted that he is in fact the leader that MG thinks we should have. Marc accepted JTs answers. Why can’t you?
How incredibly shallow and rude of you to dismiss…[Read more]
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Some are apparently troubled that I do not take MG’s bailout as the proof that JT is now ’the right stuff’. For me JT remained the same person who started the campaign. The one who changed was MG. I choose not to emulate that.
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Again, nothing positive about your preferred candidate, just more negativity about the others. Maybe that’s why the JM team is losing – her ’support’ is all negative energy.
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You continue to amaze me? Star struck are we! Joyce Murray has the momentum and even the mass media is writing about it. :) I can post the news stories if you like or anyone can simply google Joyce Murray AND Momentum and they’ll see all the articles written. Justin’s team is scrambling now despite all the advance campaigning as it will in…[Read more]
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Yes, I am amazing aren’t I? :-)
I am absolutely NOT star struck. I have not thrown my support behind any candidate – I have defended JT against unfair and untrue attacks, mostly for some reason, coming from supporters of JM – not sure why that is happening and I thoroughly doubt JM supports attacking other candidates, she seems far to fair a…[Read more]
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In my opinion Mr. Garneau knew that by withdrawing from the race he was going to make the contest between Mr. Trudeau and Ms. Findlay a lot closer which was one of the best things that he could possibly do for the life of the Liberal Party! Way to go Mr. Garneau!!!!!
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What I like is all of the remaining candidates are getting more exposure.
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Martin Showell replied 1 month, 4 weeks ago
Brian, you make some very good points.
First, can I ask for a reference for the data you refer to regarding 40% of Liberals will never vote NDP and 33% of NDP will never vote Liberal. I can’t find that information anywhere. But, assuming it is true, that still means that 60% of Liberals and 67% are…[Read more]
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Thank you for re-posting those musings of mine Patricia! Very nice! I am so charmed that you took the time to research my feelings!
However, it seems you skipped over my post from … Martin Showell replied 2 weeks, 6 days ago:
“My feelings on “cooperation” have changed. At one time, not so long ago, I supported the idea. But after lengthy…[Read more]
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Justin is the only one that can succeed against the Conservatives. We need to
reach the electorate. That is what he can do and he has proved that by soundly defeating all those that campaigned for the right to lead the Liberal Party.-
You’re suggesting the race is already over? Perhaps you know something the rest of us don’t.
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Liberals tied with Tories… but would win commanding victory with Justin Trudeau as leader: poll
Justin Trudeau continues to reshaped Canada’s political landscape with a new poll finding the Montreal MP would take the Liberals to an election victory if he was leader of the party.Let us hope it is over as Justin can bring our Party back to where…[Read more]
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I have mixed feelings about the Liberal Party winning a strong majorirty and it has much to do on returning democracy to Canada. I seem to think a Liberal minority with the NDP as the power broker could possibly help bring proportional representation to our so called democracy.
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I’m not at all sure about that.
Here in Ontario, the NDP have been less than entirely upfront. I can’t see how, if they can smell success, they will do the superhuman thing and not savage whatever stands their way. They have, still, a legacy to make because they are relatively `new’.
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One question I would ask about the poll: Did they ask who Canadians would vote for given a choice between Bob Rae and Justin Trudeau or did they even bother to ask about any of the other candidates? i.e. if Marc Garneau were the leader, or Martha Hall-Findlay.
Something of this smells of either very lazy polling or highly manipulative polling:-
If he is talking about the forum polls, at least one of them did ask those questions…vs Rae, Garneau et al., In all cases JT # were a god deal better.
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oops…good..Freudian slip eh :)
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If that is true, it wasn’t mentioned in the NP article I read on the subject. The G&M story I only skimmed but it seemed to be trying to inject language into the article about JT that was designed to make us like him but not take him seriously. Then again, the G&M has become even more biased towards the CPC than even the NP.
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The poll that matters, is Can ”Justin” win the next election!
The answer is a resounding ”YES” and for the Liberal Party that should be paramount. Need to talk no more of PR or Consolidation. These are dead issues that have no future at the present time.
Time for our members to consolidate and join a winning team.-
Winning elections to do what? Just for the sake of associated adrenalin rush? Just to perpetuate a FPP system which grossly misrepresent Canadians preferences? We need to improve the Canadian democracy. This is a more important goal than a temporary triumph with, say, 33% of votes over 77% which did not want us.
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67%, typo
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you know george, if you see a ”typo”, you can copy your post, delete the original, then comment back with a corrected post. how are we ever going to trust you to be able to fill out a PR ballot.
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Thanks, it did not occur to me.
Mind you how much worse I’d be with PV ballot.-
just about as worse. ;)
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You can’t really change anything if you cannot form the government. You need a majority but voters need a stronger say, like maybe ”recall” once you have done.
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Very well put Patricia Xx…!
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what’s your inside info to the contrary?
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that’s a big ”if”. he is not his father, just like i am not my father (thank gawd…for him and for me). can we just not see him as a youthful buoyant unapolgetically liberal pro-canadian who, if he is able to read his base and learn from them, could possibly return trust and an enthusiasm to revive the LPC?
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@Peter Haley JT is not getting off to a very great start. He seems woefully misinformed about electoral reform. His is clinging to PV or Second-Past-the-Post which changes little.
Proportional representation may be the LPC’s best hope of survival. Certainly, PR is the only thing that will restore democracy to the House of Commons. PR is…[Read more]
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I think PR would be perfect: for an elected Senate. Sneate Reform is overdue, and the experiment wiith PR in countries like USA, Britain, France, Canada would benefit from this test. Although I am open to new concepts in electoral reform, I think it’s too radical for Canadians to consider for the next election, and too attackable by the Cons. …[Read more]
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A leader who has the mandate to negotiate a cooperation agreement would be open to all possibilities as opposed to one who has not been elected with such a mandate. I agree that LPC should have been open to options, not closing them.
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It certainly makes sense to prepare for cooperation. Stuart Parker’s analysis of Cullen’s proposal says that there is only upside to cooperation. Even it does not materialize, there is no downside.
Only about 2% of voters belong to a political party. To make primaries more fair, the parties cooperating need to build up their memberships -…[Read more]
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It’s a shame our LPC constitution (or the NDPs I believe) doesn’t support that kind of candidate selection – little glitch in the plan there I guess.
But let’s assume it did … now we have to fight pre-election primaries before the “real” elections? We have to spend some of our limited resources fighting with the those we supposed to be…[Read more]
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Most constitutions consist of motherhood statements that are pretty broad to stand the test of time and different situations. The LPC constitution seems to be broader than most (i.e., more flexible).
This is the last thing that we need to worry about at this stage.
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I am not an expert on our constitution but chapter 15 section 58 says: “Each EDA must hold a candidate selection meeting to select a candidate of the Party for
election to the House of Commons…” It seems to me that this requirement could not be met under cooperation.I believe @doug-brydges commented on the constitutionality of cooperation,…[Read more]
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I get it. It’s not for you.
This article sums up the arguments against PR in a way that seems to be an appropriate response:
“…virtually every additional objection to PR, like those addressed here, is founded on the insulting theory that voters cannot handle the demands of making real choices. The typical winner-take-all advocate wants to…[Read more]
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Well, that is an interesting article. I would find it more interesting if was against PR – but I am not. I have never once said that I oppose PR.
I oppose cooperation. The two things are not related. Why do the supporters of cooperation assume that they own the issue of electoral reform? I can be for ER and against cooperation. It’s quite a…[Read more]
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How patronizing that article is. Smacks of ”cannot win with the facts, so let’s do the ”ad hominum”
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The article does a very detailed analysis of all of the objections to PR. It is the anti-PR side doing the ”ad hominum” – at least according to the article.
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Actually the biggest reason I would support preferential balloting over proportional representation is that the former keeps the MP bound to his constituents, the latter binds him only to the party and public opinion polls. The chosen candidate in a PB scheme would at least have a broad consensus and mandate from the riding. Remember that the job…[Read more]
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There is actually no reason we cannot look at a combination of PV and PR, and PR and can take many different forms in itself. This is one of my problems with this whole push by the cooperators group to make alliances with parties unlike us to put into effect … what? Was I sleeping when the LPC decided it supports pure PR?
I personally like…[Read more]
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Hi Martin,
Unlike the CPC Joyce Murray supports environmental sustainability and the social justice goals enunciated in the new LPC Charter developed with grass roots input over 18 months. Indeed she was the lonl Leadership candidate to support the Charter in the Liberal Community. These goals are consistent with the broad goals of the Green…[Read more]
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No votes are being “split”, Peter. To “split votes” is to assume that the votes are coming form the same like-minded people.
They are not. Just because we may agree on some policy does not translate to vote splitting.
I have no respect for the NDP in terms of its ability to manage the country and to create responsible fiscal policy and…[Read more]
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Hi Martin
Lawrence Martin describes today’s New Democrats as “a temperate, middling lot perhaps better described as New Liberals.” (Are they new Liberals or New Democrats, Globe and Mail , January 22, 2013). He states that “While there are certainly policy differences (between the Liberals and the NDP) they are not nearly what they used to be.…[Read more]-
Well they haven’t come far enough for me. They still refer to socialism in their constitution, are anti-capitalism, believe in the principles of “social ownership”. This was all just reaffirmed at their last convention. Further the New Democratic Party Socialist Caucus is gaining strength and power since the last election.
If these “New…[Read more]
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Agree. NDP’s policy has nothing to do with their new realism, though, and as socialist as they talk (and I have nothing against socialism per se) they won’t follow through. a Wish List is just a wish list.
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Thanks for repeating this clause @martin-showel – (Chapter 16, Section 65 actually) – I may have quoted it before but it does bear repeating.
… For whatever reason, some people just blindly dither on and on refusing to accept that the Party must operate according to its Constitution… without deviation.-
Thank you Douglas.
I stand corrected, the Chapter and Section from Douglas is the correct one. I was looking at a constitution from before the last revisions.
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Seriously? We can’t discuss possible changes in the constitution. You guys need to get off your high horses and start understanding what a grass roots movement is all about. Nothing is cast in stone and that includes the constitution. We can debate ideas and reject them if need be but to say that policy is off the table is not about what…[Read more]
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Certainly we can discuss changes to the LPC constitution. Let’s do that! That would be a much better approach, in my opinion, than simply ignoring the fact that, currently, JMs plan for cooperation is not possible per our constitution – a fact that as far as I know she has not addressed (I may be wrong about that).
One of my many concerns with…[Read more]
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Regardless if the leader of the LPC is open to cooperation or not does not mean the NDP or Greens will stand down to allow only a Liberal candidate in a riding. This was suggested in Calgary Centre only to have the Green candidate personally attack the Liberal candidate.
Albert Einstein said “The definition of insanity is doing the same thing…[Read more]
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hope you’re not suggesting we’re all crazy, as we try, try and try again :)
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I have been hearing so much about cooperation and that concept is what I think is crazy. :P
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Einstein’s saying would apply to not cooperating. This is what we were doing forever, except when keeping CPC in power as minority government. Accepting the option of cooperation would be something new.
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Emilie
There are 2 sides to every story. One side says that May approached the LPC about cooperating in Calgary and was rebuffed. So the GP fielded a candidate, raised money from supporters and ran an excellent campaign. Then, the LPC wanted to cooperate.
This is the first I have heard of any personal attacks although I have heard from at…[Read more]
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QUOTE: Harvey Locke is stuck in the us-against-them environmentalism of the past. His whole career, he’s been single-mindedly dedicated to conservation. He’s been at it too long to start new conversations, and planning for our
sustainable energy future is way outside his area of expertise. I don’t think the voters of Calgary Centre want to throw…[Read more]-
BTW – Locke lived in Banff, an hour and a half west of Calgary but moved to Calgary Centre during the campaign.
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that sounds ”crazy” to me, i would have stayed in banff.
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Sounds like campaign talk to me …it’s too bad that both the Liberals and GP got locked out ..they both ran a great campaign ..next time, let’s put two great candidates in different ridings instead of in the same one.
The GP has shown it is competitive. In this race, they challenged both the Cons and LPC head-on and made a respectable…[Read more]
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A point to remember about the NDP is that this is the same party that essentially worked with Harper to bring down a Liberal government that would have instituted national daycare and the Kelowna accord – affordable daycare and peace with the First Nations are staple NDP policy planks and they helped get a government that was the antithesis of…[Read more]
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An excellent point, William. The NDP are not our friends. They stand to gain as much, if not more, from the demise of the LPC. They cannot be trusted. There is little doubt in my mind that if the LPC adopts a strategy of cooperation, the NDP will work right along with the CPC to make us look foolish, weak and defeated. That is what is in their…[Read more]
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I don’t agree with PR just for the sake of putting mps in the House who were not elected but their party got 2% of the vote. This to me is undemocratic.
If for example the Communist party got 2% of the vote and did not elect any mps in any ridings, then too bad for that party. They should not be awarded 6-7 seats in the House.
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i think it would be an unworkable mess in the commons, but could be considered for the senate. that’s progrssive reform at its best.
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Funny how well PR works in other countries.
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scandinavian, smaller, countries primarily. it’s not so funny in italy.
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The two ”I’s”. Poster-children for bad PR. Most countries do not use pure PR, but some mixed system. Over 70 countries use it successfully.
http://www.fairvote.ca/en/myths-about-fair-voting-and-proportional-representation
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Thats argueable. many counrties have problesm (Israel, latvia, Belgium for example). They have many many more parties (Israel over 30!). Beguim couldn’t figure out how to form a governemnt for 4 years after the 2007 election (Wiseman, Contemporary Politcal Issues).
The counrties that also have PR are much smaller demographically. The logistics…[Read more]-
No electoral system is perfect. The electoral system is a key component in democracy but not the only one – it is needs to be supported by fair and balanced justice systems, effective legal enforcement; transparent public institutions; social participation, history, etc.
PR is not a particular electoral system. It is an objective which can…[Read more]
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But check out the make-up of those countries. Do they really compare to here?
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Which countries are you were to referring to, in particular? What exactly is there about those countries, and in Canada, that makes you think that PR is incompatible here? What is your opinion based upon?
Sounds like a basis for an entire thesis.
Patricia, I am no specialist in political science. But I can see that FPTP is definitely not…[Read more]
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Thanks for that, Patricia. I appreciate your approval.
Maybe you need to take a breather. Even I, a kind and lovely person, find your nagging and lack of apparent respect for other opinions difficult.
No one needs to take a concrete position on electoral reform at the present time, and no one needs to be berated for not agreeing. I know about…[Read more]
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I expect you are right. I am sorry if I offended you. There is a great deal of misinformation on electoral reform. I have tried to provide people with other sources of information and another perspective. I think those that are interested in the topic find it helpful.
I believe that the issue is topical because it is one of he few defining…[Read more]
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Emilie, Since you say you know all about PR systems, you should also know that most systems put a minimum amount of popular vote before they get a seat. For example, NZ has a mixed system. They use FPTP to elect MPs in the normal way. Then they use list seats to adjust for the popular vote. A party must either get 5% of the popular vote or…[Read more]
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I did not say I know so much about PR.
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NZ is a very small country. Not comparable socially, either. Very conservative.
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In a PR system, who would the new MP’s (ie in the above example, the Communist party) be accountable to? Certainly not any particular riding. That is the main problem with PR. If there were a way to work out who is accountable to whom, then sure, let’s look at it.
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Accountable to the voters – wouldn’t that be nice for a change?
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Which voters? All and sundry? That actually translates into nobody. PR is very easy to play.
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I heard Wayne Smith of Fair Vote speak last night and he put a different light on this than I had heard before. I will try and explain it as Wayne did.
Let’s take any riding which has 4 candidates standing for election as MP. Under FPTP, which ever one gets the most votes becomes the MP. If Candidate A gets 40% of the vote and the remaining 3…[Read more]
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Lost somewhere:
In FPTP
1-the party winning 51% of ridigs gets a majority government, the other ridings would not count
2- assuming uniform distribution of current popular vote in the country ,say 90% pretty equally split between CPC, LPC and NDP, and 10 say GPC, reflected in all ridings; the party getting 32% of votes wins a riding
3-The result:…[Read more]-
Oh dear and where is the unlucky riding that gets an MP forced on them, which they did not elect and do not want? Not to mention what principals parties have to give up in order to form government :P
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In a PR system as the one used in Germany ones’ riding MP will be elected by the riding voters. Therefore the riding always would be represented by MP supported by its constituents.
All four ’major’ parties have good intentions regarding Canada. I think that any coalition or minority government will be based on sufficient common ground to serve…[Read more]-
So then why change to something that gets you the same results? And no coalitions or minority governments means that SOMEONE has to give up on something, policies, principles or head into another election.
PR is not the dream that will end the consequences of FPTP as PR will bring it’s own problems which may be worse.
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Interesting reading about PR history in US: http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/polit/damy/articles/kolesar.htm
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Thank-you so much for this excellent article, George. It shows clearly how electoral systems are manipulated in order to deny representation and accountability.
It is no coincidence that PR gained favour in the era of Roosevelt’s New Deal and then has been studiously attacked ever since. It does not mention McCarthyism but the attackers of PR…[Read more]
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I heard Wayne Smith of Fair Vote speak last night. He mentioned that the electoral system needed neither constitutional amendment nor referendum to be changed. Such a change could indeed be hidden in a omnibus bill!
Wayne then noted that three Canadian provinces had PR electoral systems in the first half of the 20th century. The governments of…[Read more]
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Hi Emile,
Most proposals for electoral reform that are aimed at a more proportional representation incorporate a threshold of between 3% and 5% of the popular vote. This eliminates independents and small parties. I think the Law Commission of Canada recommended mixed member proportional representation system included a threshold but am not…[Read more]
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It’s just come to light to me (I guess I live in perpetual darkness) that the Australian Senate has been elected and PR for some time. They had also considered abolishing, but this body, although it cannot introduce money bills, represents the otherwise disenfranchised such as aboriginal groups and marginalized parties and seems to work as a…[Read more]
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Many Aussies are hoping to use PR in the commons as well because voter turnout is low – relative to what it should be under a mandatory voting system
http://www.openforum.com.au/content/proportional-representation-will-bring-voters-back
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it’s being ”considered”, not proposed. and it’s a labour government. their pm has been in trouble lately with her supposedly hate speech on muslims…wonder if she’d like a radical islamist party represented.
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Yes, true, it is only being discussed in media, etc. Presumably it will not be too big a leap as Senate has used PR. Also, several Australian states.
I would hope that Australia would set a high enough quota to keep out the far-out fringes. As I mentioned to Emilie above, a party must either get 5% of the popular vote or win a seat under FPTP…[Read more]
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Many Aussies hate Liberals but they still get in regularly – swings and roundabouts.
Gillard is an exceptionally brave person but she, too, will eventually (or sooner) find herself `out’.
There is actually another Party around – extremely right-wing – can’t recall name. Oz is a right of centre country despite the mythology.
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Australia has a mandatory voting law, so how could they have a low turn out?
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They only have to show up at the polls to comply. They do not have to vote.
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That makes no sense. Once you’re there, you get a ballot whether you want one or not. Are you saying people are just giving them back? I asked and my Oz friends thought that was a ludicrous idea – never heard of it. Where did you hear this?
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http://thoughtundermined.com/2011/10/20/does-voter-turnout-matter/
Someone else also said that the fines were very low which could also account for the low turnout.
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Fines can be low ($50?) but there is also an option for jail time. It seems to depend on a number of factors.
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They also invariably get a few real wingnuts. A Tassie Senator, elected by the pro-life movement, held the balance of power for years.
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i have an aussie cousin, a verifiable wingnut :) however, godda love em.
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To Peter Haley (2 days and 2 hours ago) – small countries with relatively homogeneous populations really can’t be compared to Canada – a `new’ country with very mixed cultural population.
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i agree with you, and that’s a problem with PR. Norway is a prime example: largely homogeneous, with a fascist faction that led to a horrific slaughter to try to keep it that way. They have 21, including the “beer unity”, partes. it has taken a coaltion among the Labour Party, Socialist Left Party, and Centre Party to form a government…[Read more]
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To me the prime example is Germany – probably the most successful modern democracy, which is a federation, like Canada, and have a mixed proportional representation. Really, folks – how can you keep insisting on an oldest and most primitive electoral system which is in use by only a few countries, when the vast majority of Western democracies…[Read more]
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well, in the first place, germany is a republic. and secondly, half of their elected representatives are fptp. and thirdly, the ”few countries” include such tiny primitive democracies such as the usa, france, britain and canada. i’m not saying it’s the best system, but i think you should be clear in what you’re preaching.
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The last thing I want us to go the USA way, with their extreme polarization, everything either black or white. Also, both France and USA have directly elected (meaning – PR) president, who has a lot of power. UK has an actual monarch – a figurehead for sure, but not a joke like our GG. That leaves us as an almost unique state where 100% of the…[Read more]
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i brought up those four countries because they are among the most stable democracies in the world. we’re not the usa or france, both republics, and we don’t have a senate that can gridlock even a directly elected president and house and we’re not unique at all, other than the fact that we’re stable. i’m not opposed to change, it’s only…[Read more]
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Stable? Canada has had more elections in the past 20 years than most countries with PR.
When we change government, the new one spends 2 years undoing what the last one did before actually moving forward. We are on a huge seesaw.
Cuba is stable too. Dictatorships tend to be like that. Maybe you missed the police carting off dissidents to jail…[Read more]
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stable in that the countries i listed are democracies, not autocracies. there’s no threat to overthrows or coups, although i suppose we have a party in power that’s acting like it’s happened.
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Thanks for your earlier posts, you’ve given something to think about. I’m not convinced about co-op but I will look into it more for sure.
Electoral reform is something i’m sure most Libs will agree on, but I don’t support PR. A couple days ago I mentioned the logistical problem with PR due to our geography and current house size. Would we…[Read more]-
Thanks for your questions, Margret.
JM’s focus on cooperation is to implement PR. There is no point in getting rid of Harper if the system which allows anyone to get 100% control of the government without majority support remains in place. PR offers many other benefits as well which will either fix or improve other elements in our democracy…[Read more]
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Under a mixed member proportional system the number of ridings can be increased or the size of the ridings can be increased. From the point of view of policy it matters little about who is on the list or how they are chosen because under party discipline they weill be required to vote the partly leadership policy. Many MPs in the Samara Canada…[Read more]
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Peter, I would hope that party discipline would be vastly reduced under PR. If MMP does not do that, then I would prefer to look at STV.
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I cannot see why the logic of party discipline would be reduced under MMP. However there would be more negotiations between parties on policy issues because it would be less likely that one party would have a majority of seats in the House. For a hypotheical example an agreement between Conservatives with 40% of the seats and Liberals with 19%…[Read more]
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If there are multiple MPs in each riding, that would weaken party discipline because of the vastly increased competition within the riding – including competition between candidates of the same party.
Also, if there are separate votes for the party and for the MP, that would put pressure on the MP to develop an identity quite separate from…[Read more]
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And, they’ll only be right if they do what you say is right, right?
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Not at all. I just endeavour to provide information if they wish to consider the matter further.
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My generation was crazy about Pierre Elliot Trudeau – PET for short. His son Justin is quite unlike his father but no less relevant to this generation and mine too – his abbr – name JET is a good one too.
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yaba daba do.
great -
National Pres. Mike Crawley tweeted this morning that a surge of supporter sign-ups last night exceeded expectations and it will take a couple of days to “scrub” the list (verify sign-ups) … expects to have firm numbers by mid-week. https://twitter.com/_Mike_Crawley/status/308636578694193152
There may well be a lot of current members who were…[Read more]
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i thought we had sorted this out. You may register as a supporter of a candidate even if you are already a member. That’s been my understanding. i’ve been getting regular emails from JT’s team for a while now.
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That’s one reason ”supporter” is confusing to some people.
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If delivering victory to the LPC is the only qualification for leadership, Justin may have the upper hand. The final count is not in yet. But if delivering representative, accountable government to Canada makes a good leader, Justin has clearly stated he prefers the status quo – one for the few definitive statements he has made, by the way. …[Read more]
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That is unfortunate, because Justin has shown that he can deliver the votes. The status quo that you mention does not mean Harper philosophy and that is something that this country needs to rid themselves of.
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Well said John! I absolutely agree with you that Mr. Trudeau can deliver the votes! Frankly I feel that he is the one who really scares the Conservatives which sets the stage for an interesting next three years!!!! I loved how Ms. Martha Hall Findlay gave him something of a painless vaccination in debate number 3! The backlash against her by…[Read more]
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I’m not sure I see your point. The hysteria that MHF’s perfectly justified comment was met with was pretty juvenile. `Don’t mean to the kid!’
If you think he’s not fresh meat for Harper and Co, you are not facing reality. He’s a dream come true for them.
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It is simply not true that Trudeau supports the “status quo”.
Trudeau has said he supports electoral reform, and prefers the preferential ballot over proportional representation.
The preferential ballot is also known as “instant runoff” since if a candidate doesn’t get over 50% of the first ballot, it goes to people’s second choices.…[Read more]
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As I have mentioned quite a few times in these blogs, PV is just a twist on FPTP as usually changes little. Here are the comments just made to Margret (I know how hard it is to follow these blogs, so I will repeat as I kept a copy):
Preferential voting is just a twist on the existing FPTP. It is still a plurality system that can result in…[Read more]
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isn’t the preferential ballot used solely to choose leaders of parties? good idea, but hardly a radical electoral reform.
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I will start by saying that the Bloc is not uniformly socialist. When it was first formed, it consisted mostly of PC MPs defecting from Mulroney.
The preferential ballot is also used for selecting candidates for MP by parties.
It is true, it is the favoured method for picking single candidates.
But that is the basis for our parliamentary…[Read more]
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there seems to be some appetite for it, as many people are fed up with the results and the muzzles applied to governing mps. depends what you mean by radical, not talking revolution here, yet ;)
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Regarding PR resulting in MPs not accountable to specific ridings I offer two approaches:
1-Maybe it is the time to move on from seeing Canada as a collection of small communities sending each a delegate to a distant and place where s/he is to fight to the death for its constituency (which in fact may be only 33% of local voters). Maybe we should…[Read more]-
The local issues are to be debated / resolved through provincial / municipal elections.
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Thanks for this reference, George. At the bottom of the wiki, there are links to various ”how to set up electoral systems” manuals and their supporting organizations.
Here we are fighting to bring democracy to other nations. We tell them to set up PR electoral systems. And then we deny the same democracy to ourselves. What hypocrites we are!
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Seems to me that PR, like appointments in a way, just puts people in a position ti wheel and deal to push ideas that they can’t convince voters to support. PB gives me the chance to support people according to how acceptable their ideas are to me, even if I can’t have everything my way..
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Historians have recently highlighted Winston Churchill’s warning against the Alternative Vote. He said it would mean elections being determined by “the most worthless votes given for the most worthless candidates.”
The whole speech is well worth reading. He is supportive of electoral reform but he says the proposed change to AV “adds new…[Read more]
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Great man Churchill. But he really got it wrong from time to time – he thought Gandhi an utter fraud for instance.
If he said that about AV, i shudder to think what he thought of PR.
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Although I could not find a direct quote by Churchill on PR, I believe that he would have favoured it based upon what I did find. Churchill is seen as a highly regarded spokesperson for parliamentary democracy.
Churchill said of first-past-the-post:
”
The present system has clearly broken down. The results produced are not fair to any party,…[Read more]-
Nice findings. Apparently no one wants to argue with Churchill.
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The LPC has not disclosed how many supporters the other candidates have brought in. Nor does one know how many supporters have signed up on the LPC website who have not declared support for a particular candidate. Is the LPC managing the news to provide an edge for Justin?
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I will be interested in the membership number.
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Seems 294,000 is the total. Justin only has 51%.
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The only 51% means that he won. No one else even came close.
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I hope registered voters will think hard and chose based on facts – as plans, track records and personal achievements, rather than on enthusiastic speeches good for a student council president candidate.
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i think people vote from the heart, not so much the mind. even so, pt appeals to both, i think you’re just too biased to admit it. there are 3 candidates that fit both, i feel. and without ”enthusiasm” in 2015, the LPC could be gone.
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Yes, I see JT being a very good campaigner for LPC’s fresh priorities as defined by JM.
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and you see puppies and rainbows too. jt may adopt some of jm’s ideas when he is leader, for sure. THE MAIN QUESTION I HAVE FOR EVERYONE, ESPECIALLY THOSE WHO SAY JM OR THE HIGHWAY, IS WILL YOU ABANDON THE LPC OR UNITE BEHIND ITS ELECTED LEADER TO DEFEAT HARPER?
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I’ll vote for the candidate best placed to get my riding from CPC’s hands. I hope that that is an LPCer. But NDP or GPC suits me too for that purpose. For me the ’enemy’ is on the right, not on the left.
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i see that as a personal choice, and i might just do the same.
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Hi Patricia,
As the national president said yesterday, there was a significant last minute surge because everybody was announcing the sign up deadline. We now have to comb the list to remove duplicates, fake names, current members who also signed up as supporters, etc. We are taking great care to ensure the legitimacy of those eligible to be on…[Read more]-
Thanks Andre. Who released the numbers for Justin?
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Justin’s team did. They released their numbers.
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thanks for the info
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Hi Andre, it appears that the scrub has worked somewhat. I was getting two identical e-mails from the party per day. Now I get one.
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The e-mails I was referring to are the liberal community e-mails. Not sure what happened but I received two today.
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Justin has not convinced everyone. He only has 51% of the total ..and Joyce has the momentum.
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If the perception becomes that it is Joyce, not Marc, who are running second to Justin, anti-Justin vote can start coalescing towards Joyce. That could potentially put her within striking distance from Justin. As she is one of the least confrontational candidates (definitely less than Mark or Martha), she might become #2 choice for many voters, so…[Read more]
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I like your analysis :-)
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Interesting…i have nothing against JM. But i would hardly call her unconfrontational [ i know you didn't say that]
She gets her digs in pretty well in an understated way. She’s smarter than Martha about nakedly going for the juggler though. -
Being that it is a one time preferential vote. There is no need for people to go to JM to vote JT down. You guys seem to forget many people don’t share your views in co-operation. Because of that JM may be placed lower on the ballot then JT. Plus all of it is weighted by riding.
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If JT does win, I’d be willing to wager that he will be talking PR and cooperation within a year. He has little choice. Hope he does not leave it too long. Harper will be itching to call an election before the new leader gets on their feet.
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The main argument used by CPC and LPC purists was that the LPC leadership did not have the electorate mandate to enter a cooperation agreement. JT would be exposed even more as he would have a mandate to reject cooperation. Anyway, for me JT is at the bottom of the list as the least qualified of all.
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Thanks for pointing that out, George. Now I will have to work even harder to get JM elected if JT is unlikely to change gears. ;-)
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Ok, George, What is the counter-argument? I am pretty non-partisan so that just this type of argument does not register with me.
The Cons seem to have overcome their objections with the vote-pooling schemes of the early 2000s. Although the PCs do say that their party was stolen from by Harper.
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I was referring to the CPC propaganda following the LPC/NDP (aborted) coalition after which some LPC-ers became so allergic to cooperation. A late thought conversion to cooperation of other leader than JM would expose LPC to same ‘lack of mandate’ weakness even if not justified. We are painting ourselves in a corner by making the exclusion of…[Read more]
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Thanks for the explanation, George!
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The PM is the person that gains the confidence of the House of Commons.
Campaigning on a coalition government is not realistic. The argument that it is not democratic because you did not campaign on it is nonsense. The PM needs the majority of the house to vote in favour on votes of confidence.
If we can not get past this simple premise, PR is…[Read more]
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We already fell for it once. At least that’s what the people ‘listeners’ told us. The propaganda against PR is also fierce and a lot of untrue assertions about it are made on this site. The bottom line is that PR would not deliver LPC majority governments for a long time if ever. We’d probably around approx. 33% of vote and able to chose…[Read more]
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George;
I am having a problem interpreting the perceived legitimacy of a Government.
To me ”cooperation” and PR are two opposite ways to form a government. How can I justify the legitimacy of both to the same people?
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We need cooperation now to get a government willing to implement a PR system. If implemented, the PR system would produce a parliament with seats split, say, 303/30/30/10%. Therefore, to have a functional government in PR system at least two 30% range parties need to cooperate. I do not see any contradiction or legitimacy problem.
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30/30/30/10% typo. I am bad this morning.
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The way I understand cooperation is we do not run in some ridings and in return others do not run in ours.
This can result a coalition majority government with each party combined has the proportional representation less than an other party. This has been the case in the past under MacKenzie-King.
However the premise of PR is FPTP is not…[Read more]
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If i read you right, it is almost as if my winning through cooperation we would be saying to the cons[ and the country]…’See, this is how unfair the system is. If we opposition parties all agree to bury our distinct differences [ which regularly results in not forming the winning coalition at the polls] and form a cooperative block dedicated to…[Read more]
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I can support electoral reform if I can identify my elected representative. But selling two totally different processes at the same time will leave us open for attack from two founts at once.
We can be attacked on the cooperation front and on the PR front at the same time.
When our answers are compared it will make us look unfocused at best.…[Read more]
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FPP system is more evidently exposed to being ‘abused’ when one has more than two significant parties. As posted elsewhere, in this configuration one party may secure a majority government concentrating on winning 51% of ridings and not spending a dollar on gaining others. In this way that party may have the majority government with as low as…[Read more]
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PR is an electoral system which, simply speaking, distributes the parliament seats proportional with the popular vote per entire country. There are flavors of PR which provide for direct representation of each riding. The cooperation is an agreement between parties, a political tool, which may be used at any time and within any kind of electoral…[Read more]
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George, I believe this can be a valid perspective of a reasonable person.
Let me do a mock election for demonstration purposes. Assume their are a total of 5 seats available with 100 votes cast in each riding.
Democratic election results (the will of the people)
Riding 1
Conservative vote 55
Green Party 45Riding 2
Conservative vote…[Read more]
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Nice idea of this mock election. Your example have both measurements done on a 50% plus criteria and it looks like a US presidential election issue (GWB vs Gore) The significance of the comparison would be marginal for FPP / PR debate. To be more spectacular let’s assume that the outcome per riding in FPP is the same and totals per country is the…[Read more]
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Yes George, the will of the people has many different perspectives that all have advantages and disadvantages. I have a very open mind what is the best way and try to listen to the debate.
What I cannot do is pick two systems at the same time when the selected will of the people has two different results.
This is the discussing that I can see…[Read more]
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Sorry I fail to see any conflict between the tool called cooperation to be used in an FPP environment and a PR system which is a different way of distributing parliamentary seats than FPP. Te bottom line is which system is better: the one which may leave as many as 67-83% of voters unhappy with an FPP majority government or max 49% unhappy with a…[Read more]
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It seems to me that you are defining a happy voter as someone that votes for the MP that belongs to the same party that forms government. This I think is a little shallow.
You seem to be extending this one stretch further. A happy voter is someone that voted for a MP that forms a coalition government.
I suggest a happy voter is someone that is…[Read more]
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I vote because I want my opinion to have an effect on government not to manifest myself. I can manifest myself by discussing stuff with friends. Voting as a citizen makes me responsible for the outcome. When one sees that over 60% of popular vote is not represented in government one should think that something is not quite right and should look…[Read more]
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There are many ways to have a democratic election. All have their benefits and disadvantages.
What is bothering me the most about this discussion is the concept of a PR election. This has the potential to make PR partisan along party lines. It makes me step way back and think a lot, I do not support a PR election.
Major changes to the…[Read more]
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The issue these days is not to implement a PR system and/or to start negotiating cooperation This leadership election is about selecting a leader who is mandated to do these things if the conditions will be favorable or one who is mandated not to. Aside other particular policy coherence and political stamina, I feel that cooperation and PR mandate…[Read more]
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yes, but there won’t be PR before PC, and even then it depends entirely who gets elected through PC.
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If it depends on who wins an election is not high enough of a standard.
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It seems to me he has already made that choice and it’s PB, of course he may see the light (your light) in time.
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only 51% out of 8 candidates is some how bad!
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It is a start, I will admit. The number may be inflated ..at least a lit bit. I’ve received a number of emails from Justin asking me to register to vote. Not sure how he got my name.
The campaign is not yet over.
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And, at what percent is the next nearest candidate.and how many supporters of the lowest two or three would choose JT for their second choice (51%)?
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My vote will not change, because I like to be on a winning team, just like when in the next Federal election, I will be again voting for Justin.
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Maybe if you vote JM, she’ll be the winner. Than your main reason of voting will not be spoiled. Be brave, vote JM!
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Signing in as supporter is not the same as voting. Hope that when the time comes to vote most will realize that the best for Canada and LPC is JM.
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ONLY???? seriously? there are 7 other candidates and he has more than all of them combined. Only. ffft.
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Yes Kristen, over 50% of the votes with no clear choice of a distant second even.
This campaign is over, and now it will be on to confirm our new leader as PM of Canada.
From what we have seen so far, Trudeau has that ability to connect with the electorate and should have no problem in defeating the Conservatives, so PR will also become a…[Read more]-
Mostly I agree but I’d like to see PB become the issue.
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they all got the same membership lists at the beginning, regardless of who signed up as a supporter for whom. the onus was on us to opt out of communications we didn’t want to receive.
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I truly don’t understand how we as LIberals can vote for Justin Trudeau. Winning is important, but sustainability long term is even more important. Thin policy and thinner resume. He isn’t party leadership material. When he stops treating making policy decisions like American Idol, he’ll get a second look from me.
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Sorry Eric,
I tend to disagree with you, but I do hope you stay with the Liberal Party and join the majority in voting Justin into the PM`s office.-
John, I won’t go anywhere. Perhaps I’m too much of a policy wonk. I myself, prefer my leaders to stand for something, besides soundbites. He’s made some terrible gaffes and his inexperience shows. As a Liberal, I want to win, but I believe that the party must be sustainable going forward.
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Here’s a reality check for all: the author supports Marc Garneau and I’m supporting Joyce Murray but the article does demonstrate what’s to come if we elect Justin. http://www.therecord.com/opinion/columns/article/896248–liberals-need-to-be-cautious-in-picking-their-messiah
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I’ve been saying this from the jump. He hasn’t done anything. Beating the the Bloc in a Liberal riding? He hurts my head. He couldn’t hold a senior cabinet position, much less be Prime Minister.
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It concerns me that the media are very keen that JT win if the coverage is anything to go by. He represents good future content, whether for his own sake or as a target for CPC or NDP.
The press pretty well gave the CPC the last election by whining about their quota of 5 questions but neglecting, by and large, the real issue – historic ruling of…[Read more]-
Maybe the media like Harper because our candidate/leader couldn’t connect with them, let alone the voters. You seem to say it’s a bad thing for the media to like and connect with our leader.
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But the media didn’t like Harper. They complained non-stop. What they liked was the easy story.
Whether Ignatieff could have connected with voters if he had had the same coverage will remain a mystery.
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I think a key is coverage and name recognition. When Harper was attacked by the media his message was simple. The media is bias and out to get him.
This motivated his supporters, that still discount all negative publicity.
Partisan politics, personal slurs, or propaganda call it what you want. What is common about them is people stop listening…[Read more]
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I am not supporting Justin and am supporting Joyce Murray as well, but as usual I don’t entirely agree with D’Amato. It is very true that JT lacks experience, but I believe he is extremely politically astute. The very things that she highlighted as a weakness, I always thought were brilliant moves on his part to do what he needed at the time. …[Read more]
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Thank you for a positive post. I know how hard you work for both the Liberal party and for electoral reform. As much as we don’t necessarily see eye to eye on this, you have never shoved your opinion on me or belittled mine.
All the candidates have qualities I admire and some that I just detest. I’m beginning to think that maybe we should have…[Read more]
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I actually agree. We should have found an honourable way to let him run. In all pobablity it would have been a 2 or 3 way race [depending on if BR favoured cooperation] and we would have seen JT really tested and also seen if BR’s baggage from his premier days really was going to weigh him down. It would have been an awesome contest. Our…[Read more]
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Hi Jennifer;
Megan Leslie (unfortunately not a Liberal but a very good MP) asked Peter Kent about Kyoto. She is hardly a damsel in distress, someone that hopefully will continue to serve her country.
I was watching CPAC and heard the outburst of displeasure. The “P of S” comment was not audible to me. I thought that it was inappropriate that…[Read more]
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Hi Jennifer,
Your very interesting comment raises the issue of just what are the criteria for a good leader of the LPC. I start with the assumption that large majority of the public are not interested in policy. Rather they are interested in “character” and “style”. Mansbridges insiders a few months ago identified vision, intelligence and…[Read more]
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I agree with you Eric. It is a mystery how some may prefer JT. Because you referred to the American Idol. They had at one point a terrible competitor, Sanjey (?) who get through incredible number of sessions with sufficient votes before being eliminated. Maybe we are facing a similar obsession for an evidently unqualified competitor. However,…[Read more]
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I don’t want my leader to play it safe. I agree with you wholeheartedly George. As an Ontarian living in Alberta for the past few months carrying the Liberal banner, when I hear JT say things like Alberta’s the reason for Canada’s economic woes, or that female genital mutilation isn’t barbaric and then has to back peddle and issue press…[Read more]
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You might at least get your facts straight. Gaffes they may have been – have you ever looked at gaffes that Harper or Chretien made as opposition leaders at similar points of their political careers…they were disasters quite frequently. The LPC almost ditched Chretien, many cons wondered about Harper.
The barbaric remark was ill advised but…[Read more]-
I don’t know what facts I got wrong, but I do take your point. The difference between Chretien, Harper and Trudeau is that I can point to bona fides and gravitas when it comes to Harper and Chretien. Harper and Chretien made their gaffes as PMs or senior members of their party. Trudeau made (and continues to make his) as a fairly new MP. I’m a…[Read more]
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Well maybe more interpretation of facts than any thing. I agree the comments about ABs and the barbaric nuancing were mistakes. However I don’t a agree with the speech he gave to the Islamic conference. The speech itself was very good – not mushy, and his reasons for going there and defying the CPC’s… don’t encourage the terrorist rhetoric,…[Read more]
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As leader he should be above the fray, or at least seek to. I don’t expect perfection from a leader, just a semblance of good judgment. Unfortunately, JT doesn’t have much a history. He should know better than collecting funds while on the job. The perception just isn’t right. We should all just come to terms with the fact that JT will likely…[Read more]
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Fact, JT is a puppet?
This is the least of my concerns. Integrity is what I believe is his strongest character trait.
How do you support this statement?
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John, I do believe that JT will be a puppet. Think about this objectively: He has thin policy, thinner career experience and no track record we can use to see what his judgment is like. Where we can point to his judgment, it’s been terrible (again, sharing the stage with Islamists, collecting speaking fees, noting that female genital mutilation…[Read more]
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If he is a puppet, who is holding the strings?
I do not believe that there is anyone that can pressure him to change his position for personal gain. He has been very clear that his motivation is to make Canada a better place.
My reasoning;
He is not in politics for financial gain because he would make more money on the speaking circuit.
He is…[Read more]
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Puppet or not the question of his readiness to be a leader of a Canadian party or government does not beg any answer.
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Hi George;
What makes you use the term puppet, and what qualities do you expect in a leader?
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What I was saying is that I do not know if he is or not, or will be or not a puppet. What is important for me is that based on his political credentials he should not have been short listed for the interview. I am puzzled by this peculiar form of projected nepotism.
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I can agree that I do not wish to vote for a puppet. In my opinion, this is not a good quality in a leader.
What ”political credentials” do you wish a leader to have?
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Exactly John. Absolutely right. Where is this mysterious leverage that will cause JT to be someone’s puppet? Just like his dad, the guy could be lolling on a beach somewhere, having a toke or four, maybe a cool one? Really, this argument that he is somehow feckless when he has clearly come from good stock that values olf fashioned virtues like…[Read more]
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It isn’t about some secret hidden in the shadows, Ken and John. It’s about his obvious lack of experience. Any other candidate with his experience would be laughed away from this leadership race. Could you name a senior cabinet position that he can hold where he would be a credible leader? I’m hard pressed to find one. Justin’s father paid his…[Read more]
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If you value experience as the defining trait of a leader, I can see your point. However each person has their own preferences.
I do not have my mind made up, I am looking for someone that I can trust.
If I base my leader preference only on experience, it would lead me to Stephan Harper. I choose not to support him.
Can you state what you…[Read more]
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Leader’s have usually led. A business, a non-profit, a community organization, etc. Being charismatic is not a leadership quality. I’m looking for a person that is bold in their policy and leads from the front, not from a ‘Soapbox’. A person who looks to change the status quo, who can bring people from all parts of the country together. I look…[Read more]
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I am surprised by your explanation of leadership and the choices you made.
It seems to me that your described Karen McCrimmon then did not list her as a top three pick. With so many good people running I am also having difficulty deciding.
Thank you for your reply.
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I agree, Eric. MHF, for example, is demonstrably the most widely-experienced candidate but no one discusses her here. She also has guts. It’s a shame that she felt pressured to apologise to JT because she was correct in her assertion. Are Libs smacking her for honesty and passion?
MG impresses but he is too conservative socially for me and he…[Read more]
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Now you’ve moved your goal post from the puppet to an inexperienced democrat. :)
No harm done, but people will lift any rock they can find and hurl it at a political candidate they have made up their mind to either dislike or not support…we all do it to some extent or another.
On inexperience i think JT is on very thin ice. The way i like to…[Read more]
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I could’ve probably been more succinct – I think he’ll be a puppet BECAUSE of his lack of experience. Re your conspiracy theories, it’s likely a combination of all three.
As much as I think Harper has been a poor PM, inexperienced before the post, he was not. He was an MP from 1993-1997, was leader of the Canadian Alliance, was chief aide to…[Read more]
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RE: Harper. You’re making the same kind of error Harper’s supporter’s tend to – listing accomplishments that came after he was 40 or so…JT’s age.
Harper became an mp at around 34, JT at about 36. Harper didn’t become leader of the new party until he was about 45. All his previous experience was as a policy wonk or NCC guy. Almost…[Read more]
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I’m really not. Harper ran for leader and PM only after he had the experience. Trudeau, much more impatient.
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You must admit Harper’s leadership experience was only with the NCC.
The NCC holds no annual general membership meetings and provides no financial statements to its members. The organization’s constitution distinguishes between ’voting’ and ’public’ members. Public members pay dues but do not have formal mechanisms for influencing the…[Read more]
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The fact that you can point to leadership experience, proves my point.
As for my becoming overly partisan, far from it. I don’t have blind allegiance to the party. However, I’m a firm, unapologetic believer in the party and will be so until the Party is no more or an option more in line with my beliefs is presented. I for one, do not take…[Read more]
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When I suggested you may be becoming overly partisan, I was referring not to the party but to your unwavering criticism of a leadership candidate in the party.
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That actually explains a lot about Harper. Inexperienced in almost anything, he had only the NCC’s non-democratic model to follow and appears to not have the ability or ambition to look for a better model, although the NCC is convenient. (Why would anyone bother with them? Seems an odd org.)
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pt was actualy quoted as saying he was considering the following election, not this one, and was actually coerced by the LPC backroom boys and girls. he has plenty of time to listen, grow, and gain experience.
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`Comes from good stock’?
Colour me speechless.
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The east/west divide? That fight is between The Conservatives and NDP.
I say let them stake their ground and we should consider the country as a whole when we adopt policy.
Deborah Coyne seems to have a good message about a united federation.
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The East/West divide has been exacerbated by all parties. Liberals are no different. It’s those policies that have alienated the West. Deborah Coyne isn’t for me, although her message is encouraging.
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You have recently mention that you moved to Alberta from the east. I can personally relate to this because I have lived in Alberta two times during my life. I live in Ontario at the present time and am considering moving to northern Alberta.
What kind of policies do you think will help unite the country?
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The policies to Unite Canada are already taking place. Negative policies from Harper & the Conservative Party have reached a limit where the people of Canada will vote them out.
This once again will help our unification under a proud Liberal Government that believe in the rights of it`s citizens.
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Deborah Coyne has also coherent proposals on how to move things forward. At this time I intent to have her as my second choice after JM.
Both JM and DC came in with visions and plans. They thought about what Canada needs and showed us coherent sets of proposals about how to get there. Even if their position are not identical, their separate…[Read more]-
Although I doubt there is anything anyone can say to move you fand Patricia rom your JM support of co-operation I would encourage you to read this article.
http://www.canada.com/opinion/op-ed/Liberal%2Bcooperation%2Bwork/8105568/story.html
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Thanks for the article. As guessed it did not change my opinions. I went through similar arguments before and they did not work with me.
We all are looking toward future and see it achievable in different ways. Nobody could be sure which first step is advancing forward in the most efficient way. I’m red w orange lining , others are blue lining…[Read more]
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Apparently is more of a similarity than a contrast. And I do not think is a good idea to have a Harper type of individual to bring LPC to victory. That would not be the LPC we have now. The second point regarding learning on the job. The LPC leader is not an entry level job said MG. And he is right. I do not know what made him throwing his hat in…[Read more]
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Your idea is something that is not shared by the majority. Remember the LPC Party that we have had, have not had great success in the past years, in fact it was getting close to not being around until Justin has come forward to bring change. He has the people`s votes and that is what elections are all about.
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Regarding Bob Rae, in hindsight if GK had put his support to him I think the Liberal party would be in a quite different position today. I think that he could have rallied the caucus around him and even if we were not in power we would have remained as official opposition. Going by as strong as he’s been as interim leader I don;t think the Cons…[Read more]
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Well said! Exactly!
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unfortunately, many bob rae supporters remember “rae days” and his incompetent ndp govt. i love bob rae, he has given so much, and he is a wonderful person. but he only became interim leader on the promise he wouldn’t run for leader. and some say marc garneau was “too old” at 64…well bob is 65. others say justin trudeau is “too young”…[Read more]
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There was no other person in provincial politics that could have avoided a strike through the whole civil service when the recession hit Ontario during the early years of free trade. One of the ways that he lowered government spending was scheduling days off work. This is referred to as Rae days, we must remember why.
I say that he outgrew his…[Read more]
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the unions got him elected, that’s where the ndp gets its strength. he imposed a wage freeze and days where teachers and other union members worked for nothing. not sure if that is ethical, even though it averted some layoffs. and, it led to the conservatives sweeping to power and dropping the ndp out of sight the next election. some “social…[Read more]
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My point is he governed for the good of the province and did not let the financial support of the party pull his strings. That is taking the high road, the scandal that did not happen.
There are many examples of a financial wing of a party using government money. This is the opposite how he governed Ontario.
What is the Government of Canada’s…[Read more]
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i think bob rae is an honourable man, but friends, romans (canucks), countrymen (persons)
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